Helen Polley Tasmania, Australian Labor Party
2:31 pm
My question is to the Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians, Senator Colbeck. I refer to the government's own home care package waiting list. Can the minister confirm that there are more than 129,000 older Australians waiting for their approved package—an increase of around 21,000 older Australians since August 2018?
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
2:32 pm
I thank Senator Polley for the question. Can I say I confirm that the figures that Senator Polley has just quoted are actually not correct. In fact, I can confirm that as at 30 June this year there are over 125,000 home care packages in the market, which is an increase of 25 per cent over the last 12 months, a significant improvement. It is a 25 per cent increase in the number of aged-care packages in the market over the last 12 months.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Northern Australia
Yet again we have ministers refusing to answer the direct questions they are asked.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Northern Australia
Relevance. Are you ruling that a minister, as long as they talk about a word that's in a question, is relevant? Every time we ask a question, we don't get an answer to the question.
Scott Ryan President
Senator Watt, I would appreciate a point of order being raised without a reflection upon me before I even have a chance to rule.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Northern Australia
It is happening again and again and again.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Northern Australia
Yes.
Scott Ryan President
I think no-one has challenged the rulings I've offered so far. If you are challenging a ruling I offered earlier today then I'm happy to review the Hansardif you'd like me to come back to you. On this point of order—you're making a point of order on direct relevance.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Northern Australia
I am.
Scott Ryan President
You've reminded—sorry; Senator Wong on the point of order?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
On the point of order: we do assert that the minister is not being directly relevant. The question is very clearly about those—
A government senator interjecting—
Directly relevant. He is not being directly relevant. We asked about the number of people waiting for an approved package. What I would submit to you is consistent with past rulings around what 'direct relevance' means. It is not directly relevant to simply pick up a word—'package'—and talk about something entirely different.
Scott Ryan President
My observations then, Senator Wong, were on a reflection being made upon me, in a point of order taken before I'd had an opportunity to rule, on previous rulings. Now, if I could rule on this point of order, on this occasion I happen to agree. Under the previous standing orders, where the word 'relevance' was interpreted more liberally, talking about the topic more generally in my view was the precedent and considered appropriate by the Senate. The insertion of the word 'directly' narrowed the scope of what an answer is. In this case, I remind the minister of the question because talking about a broad policy area, in my view, is not being directly relevant. That said, I cannot instruct a minister on how to answer a question. So I remind the minister of the question. And I would ask that, when points of order are being taken, I be given an opportunity to rule before reflections are made on the rulings.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
The opposition might not like the news that we are providing to the Australian people a 25 per cent increase in the number of home care packages available—
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
Scott Ryan President
I'm going to take Senator Polley's point of order, Senator Colbeck, and, if you want to contribute to that or take that up, I'll hear from you then. Senator Polley.
Helen Polley Tasmania, Australian Labor Party
My point of order is on relevance. You've just ruled on the previous point of order, and the minister has not heeded your direction to him.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
The first thing I said when I started answering this question was that the numbers that Senator Polley quoted in her question were incorrect. I then proceeded to talk about the number of packages that had come into the market in the last 12 months. I was being directly relevant, in my view, to the question—
Senator Wong interjecting—
Scott Ryan President
Can I hear from Senator Colbeck, then I'll come to you, Senator Wong.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
So I am cognisant of your ruling previously, Mr President, but I'm just making the point that the first thing I said was that the numbers quoted by Senator Polley were incorrect. And I still have 43 seconds to answer the question.
Scott Ryan President
Senator Wong, did you wish to address the point of order before I rule?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
I think he walked away from it, but I was pointing out that he was reflecting on your ruling, Mr President.
Scott Ryan President
I don't consider a respectful disagreement with my ruling to be a negative reflection. I'm more than robust enough to be able to handle that. On the point of order, though, the issue of direct relevance narrowed the scope of what is appropriate in an answer. I have ruled previously that all aspects of an answer—
Senator Wong interjecting—
Senator Wong, if I could rule, please—must be directly relevant to the question. One cannot simply be directly relevant in part of an answer and then add extraneous material. That is my interpretation of what the standing orders require. So, Senator Colbeck, I will ask you to turn to the question and be directly relevant to the question asked, which was, if I recall correctly—and I'll look for confirmation—with respect to waiting lists. Senator Colbeck.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
Again, as I said, I know the Labor Party don't like hearing good news about the number of home care packages that have come into the market in the last 12 months, and it's a significant achievement of this government by improving numbers—
Scott Ryan President
Senator Wong, on a point of order? Senator Colbeck, please resume your seat.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
It's on direct relevance. He is directly flouting your ruling. It's a very dangerous thing to do to your own President. Can the minister please answer the question, which is: can he confirm the number of Australians who are waiting for aged-care packages? I think older Australians would like to know.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
Sit down, shut up and let me answer the question.
Scott Ryan President
Order! Could we maintain the dignity of the chamber. Senator Wong?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
On a point of order: Senator Macdonald used to tell me to sit down and shut up, but this is new from you, Senator Colbeck.
Scott Ryan President
That's not a point of order. That's not a point of order, Senator Wong. Senator Bernardi, on the point of order or—
Cory Bernardi SA, Australian Conservatives
On the point of order, Mr President: this is becoming a farce. It's a broadcast day, and people are just making points of order to get on TV.
Honourable senators interjecting—
Scott Ryan President
Well, at least in that sense, Senator Bernardi, you have shown more wit than, on average, has been shown today! To be directly relevant to the question, Senator Colbeck, you've had three-quarters of the time to answer. I don't believe it is being directly relevant for the full period of two minutes to only talk about the issue of what the government has done in this regard. I think the question was quite specific in its nature, and in that sense I am asking that you turn to the question. Senator Colbeck.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
And the number of new home care packages in the market is directly relevant to the question, because it goes to the waiting list—
Honourable senators interjecting—
Scott Ryan President
Order! I'm going to take Senator Cormann and then I'll take Senator Polley. I'll take Senator Cormann on a point of order.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council
We've had this habit in recent weeks where Labor frontbenchers don't even let the minister finish a sentence before jumping to their feet and seeking to make a point of order. I think they should at least let Senator Colbeck finish a sentence.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
On the point of order, the minister has had a minute 45. Your President has repeatedly and courteously drawn him to the question—
Honourable senators interjecting—
Sorry, I haven't got my glasses on. I might be wrong. He is a President who's nominated by the government. He has repeatedly and courteously drawn this minister to the question, and the minister is flagrantly ignoring his ruling. I think everyone watching can see what is occurring.
Scott Ryan President
It is somewhat odd to be sitting here and be spoken of in the third person as if one isn't present, I will grant that. It's a first for me. Senator Colbeck—
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Northern Australia
Answer the question.
Scott Ryan President
Order, Senator Watt. It is appropriate in my view, and being directly relevant, for a minister to provide information that is in the policy area. However, on a number of occasions I have asked you to come to the specific nature of the question, which was actually about waiting lists, my notes reflect, and after three-quarters of the period have elapsed I think it is appropriate for me to call your attention to the specific nature of the question. That said, he hadn't finished the sentence he'd commenced before a point of order was raised.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
Actually, Mr President, I am trying to say that the 25,000 extra places have contributed to a seven per cent decrease in the number of people on the waiting list over the last 12 months, according to the latest figures.
Senator Wong interjecting—
Scott Ryan President
Order! I cannot instruct the minister how to answer a question, and it is not appropriate for points of order to seek direction from the chair to instruct a minister as to how to answer a question or the content of an answer. I am going to start cracking down on those, because today has been somewhat ridiculous. Senator Polley, a supplementary question?
Helen Polley Tasmania, Australian Labor Party
2:41 pm
I ask the minister again—I'm referring to the government's own home care package waiting list—can the minister confirm that more than 129,000 older Australians are waiting for their approved package, which is an increase of around 21,000 since August 2018?
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
2:42 pm
As I have just said, in the last three months there has been a seven per cent decrease in the number of people waiting for availability of a home care package. A seven per cent—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators interjecting—
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
A seven per cent decrease—
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
in the number of people waiting for a home care package—
Opposition senators interjecting—
Scott Ryan President
Order! Please resume your seat, Senator Colbeck. Numerous points of order were raised asking the minister to be directly relevant. The minister is indeed being directly relevant but half the Senate won't be able to hear him, so I do ask that the constant interjections cease so that we may hear the senator's response.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
There has been a seven per cent decrease in the home care waiting list in the last three months, directly relevant to the additional 25,000 packages that the government has put into the market in the last 12 months. The total waiting list now sits at 119,000. As I said at the outset, the number that Senator Polley is talking about is not correct.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
Well, give us the number then.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
I did, if you'd listen.
Helen Polley Tasmania, Australian Labor Party
2:43 pm
Can the minister confirm that more than 75,000 older Australians aren't receiving any home care package at all and that during the last financial year 16,000 older Australians died while they were waiting for their home care package for which they had already been approved? Does the minister agree that this is totally unacceptable?
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
2:44 pm
It is true that there are people still waiting for their home care package at the assessed level. However, 97 per cent of senior Australians waiting for a home care package are receiving some level of care through either a package at the lower level—
Scott Ryan President
Order, Senator Colbeck. Senator Polley, the point of order is with respect to? I'm going to ask senators to draw the point of order at the commencement of standing on their feet.
Helen Polley Tasmania, Australian Labor Party
Relevance, Mr President. I asked whether the minister confirmed that 75,000 older Australians aren't receiving any home care package.
Scott Ryan President
Senator Polley, I'm going to start cracking down on simple restatements of questions, which are not appropriate as points of order. The minister was being directly relevant to the question asked.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
As I said, 97 per cent of people waiting for a home care package have received an offer of some form of care while they're waiting for the package at the appropriate level that they've been offered.
Richard Colbeck Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Aged Care and Senior Australians
It is a priority, which is why we've put 25,000 new home care packages into the market in the last 12 months, which has actually reduced the waiting list. The number of home care packages in the market now, compared to 60,000 when Labor was last in government, has gone to 125,000— (Time expired)