David Pocock (ACT, Independent) | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Science and Industry. Senator Ayres. Minister, on 26 October last year, the Attorney-General issued a statement categorically ruling out a text- and data-mining exception in Australian copyright Law. Minister Burke told a conference:

We have no plans, no intention, no appetite to be weakening those copyright laws based on this draft report.

On 6 August, you told the ABC that the government had 'no plans to make changes'. Minister, is it still the case that the government has no plans to allow AI companies to mine Australian creatives' data, either via some form of. carve-out and extension to the licensing system or by other means?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) | Link to this | Hansard source

Thanks to Senator Pocock for that question. The position that was outlined by me, every time I've been asked, by the Attorney-General and by the Minister for Home Affairs and Minister for the Arts has been very clear on this question—firstly, that there will not be an undermining of copyright protections for Australian artists or Australian copyright holders. I'll come to that in a moment. It is also that it is in Australia's interest, not just in economic terms, not just in terms of productivity and growth—and that is certainly the case—but in our strategic interest as a middle-power economy in the world, for us to secure as much of the technology stack as possible, particularly those parts of the stack where Australia has competitive advantage and where we can exercise agency and control in the interests of Australia, because it is not this government's view that we should just be a cork bobbing on the ocean of other people's technology and a customer at the end of long technology supply chains. That is not in our interest. It sells out future generations. Some of the things that have been said in this debate by some of the participants have been reckless about that and have sold out future generations, their security and our national resilience. We will meet these objectives in a careful way in the Australian national interest.

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, first supplementary?

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, it has been put to me that the government is in fact considering competing proposals allowing some form of carve-out or an extension to the licensing system in exchange for a new creative arts fund and an additional multibillion-dollar investment in data centres, which you seem very keen on, with expedited approvals, and that the Prime Minister intends to announce this plan on or around 15 July. Is that, or any element of it, correct?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) | Link to this | Hansard source

I always find a question that starts with the premise, 'It's been put to me'—you know, where?

Sarah Henderson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Communications and Digital Safety) | Link to this | Hansard source

Andrew Charlton. Andrew Charlton is going around doing dirty deals.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Henderson, what you find with this government is that we are a cabinet government that works together, and he is—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Minister Ayres, please—

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm entitled to respond to interjections from—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Ayres, order!

Order! Order!

Sarah Henderson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Communications and Digital Safety) | Link to this | Hansard source

Oh, that's disgraceful.

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Henderson, I've said, 'Order!' four times and you've continued to interject. Either come and be quiet or leave the chamber. Senator Pocock?

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) | Link to this | Hansard source

President, on a point of order on relevance, I'd really like an answer to my question.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Henderson, resume your seat. Order! Senator Pocock, you would be aware that I did call the Senate to order and senators chose to ignore me. As you are aware, Minister Ayres is entitled to take interjections. I am doing my very best to stop those interjections. I appreciate you standing up and making that point, and perhaps those senators will listen to you more than they will listen to me and respect that this is your question and that you are entitled to an answer from the minister.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) | Link to this | Hansard source

I will come back to that, but I will just say that what I won't cop is denigrating very capable assistant ministers with expertise and background in this area who are making a real contribution. Dr Charlton does, every day. We have a rule over here about dual ticket holders. We do. We don't put up with it. You can only be a member of one political party at a time.

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Ayres, I'm going to draw you back to Senator Pocock's question.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, we are absolutely determined. We have set out our approach on these questions. (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, second supplementary?

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, can you categorically rule out that the government is in any way contemplating any form of change that would act as a carve-out or licensing extension for AI companies and data centres from copyright laws and would expose Australian creatives?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) | Link to this | Hansard source

I can certainly reiterate what we've said publicly, and that is that there will be no undermining of copyright protections. I won't do—I wasn't listening to triple j yesterday, Senator, but I was given a transcript. I had a glance over your reckless speculation about these issues. It is absolutely our intention to do what we can to make sure that people who produce content in Australia, who are currently getting ripped off all around the world—we are looking at that question. We are looking at the questions that go to our national interests, not just about economic opportunity and growth—they are important questions—but of having Australian sovereign capability in tech that makes a difference for future generations and for our national security.