Dave Sharma (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senators Chandler, David Pocock and Whish-Wilson have submitted a proposal, under standing order 75, today, which has been circulated and is shown on the Dynamic Red:

The need for the Australian Government to ensure Australia has a world-class national science agency, because the ongoing cuts to the CSIRO, which have led to the loss of 1,150 jobs, have weakened Australia's ability to diversify our economy and respond to major challenges.

Is consideration of the proposal supported?

More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—

With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with the informal arrangements made by the whips.

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:

The need for the Australian Government to ensure Australia has a world-class national science agency, because the ongoing cuts to the CSIRO, which have led to the loss of 1,150 jobs, have weakened Australia's ability to diversify our economy and respond to major challenges.

I thank Senators Chandler and Whish-Wilson for their good work on this motion. More than a thousand Canberrans work at the CSIRO and dedicate their lives to science, to research and to the future. It's a workforce that now faces devastating uncertainty as our national science agency is once again forced to make cuts. Up to 350 jobs are on the line, on top of the 800 jobs cut over the past 18 months. It has been pointed out to me that that doesn't include some of the non-ongoing roles which simply haven't been renewed. These aren't just numbers on a spreadsheet; these are people with families. These are minds working at the cutting edge of our environmental monitoring, health, agriculture and nutrition. Five weeks out from Christmas, this is the news that they have been given.

Investment is now lower than it's ever been. Per capita, it's less than half of what it was in the 1980s. It's fallen 87.5 per cent as a percentage of GDP over the same period. Here's what makes the current situation so outrageous: under this Labor government, the CSIRO job losses are now set to surpass even those made by the Abbott government. In 2014, we rightly saw outrage from the then-opposition Labor Party. The member for what is now the electorate of Fenner rose in the other place and gave an impassioned speech about the need to protect the CSIRO. I think Canberrans would welcome a similar speech today. The last Labor government increased investment in innovation, science and research by 50 per cent, from $6.6 billion to $9.9 billion. At the moment, it seems that the Labor government is happy to write billion dollar cheques for manufacturing jobs in Whyalla and Tomago. Why not for our scientists? Why not for the people solving the problems of the future? Whyalla has been provided a joint package of $2.4 billion. We know Tomago's is likely to be billions more.

Let me say this clearly: we need researchers in Canberra just as much as we need steelworkers in Whyalla. This is not a binary choice. It is about national priorities. Right now, those priorities are clearly failing science. Capital budgets at the CSIRO have been neglected for years. Buildings are crumbling, safety risks are rising and now infrastructure costs are cannibalising core funding. They saw the end of their COVID supplement, and they've seen, over the last 3½ years, their funding decline in real terms by seven per cent. The government may say, 'We haven't made any cuts. We've given them the same funding,' but we know they have to find savings in real terms.

I want to read into the Hansard the words of a CSIRO employee who sent me an email after the announcement of cuts: 'Dear Senator Pocock, I'm an employee of CSIRO and have just left a meeting wherein we were told that the majority of upcoming staff cuts will be in the environment portfolio. About 20 per cent of environment staff have just been told we'll soon be unemployed. Merry Christmas to us! My concern is the short-sightedness of this decision. Australia should be massively investing in R&D right now. I'm writing to ask for your help. The people of Australia need to know what is happening to a trusted national institution.'

Yesterday, we learned that the government is planning even more cuts, with the Minister for Finance reported to have written to departments and agencies and flagged a five per cent cut—more uncertainty, less science. To the government, I say this: surely, enough is enough. The uncertainty around funding must end. Our national science agency deserves long-term investment because, once we lose research capability, it's almost impossible to get it back and the challenges of the future, from climate change to artificial intelligence, will not be solved by cutting corners on science. It's time to pull out the cheque book, as you've done for Whyalla and as you'll do for Tomago. It's time to save our CSIRO and actually invest in science so we can be the smart country.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I want to put a few of the key facts on the record, and I welcome, actually, the opportunity for a discussion about the future of the CSIRO and the role that it plays not just here in the ACT but as our premier national science—importantly, applied science—and industrial research organisation. The CSIRO is the recipient of, in round terms, a billion dollars a year in public funding. That is not its only source of income, but it's a very significant contribution from the Commonwealth government. It will continue to be a very significant contribution from the Commonwealth government. There are no funding cuts from this government for the CSIRO. There is nothing but respect from this government for the role that the CSIRO plays not just in terms of its own work but in terms of the important facilitative and leadership role it plays across the rest of Australia's research and development system.

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Immigration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Why are 300 people losing their jobs, Tim?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

 Listen, any level of interest—you know, I've been engaged with Senator Pocock about some of these issues over many weeks and months. There are a few other senators in this place who've displayed an interest. The position of the coalition in government and in opposition has just dripped with contempt for the CSIRO and has dripped with contempt for science.

Sarah Henderson (Victoria, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That's a joke. You are a joke.

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Immigration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Why are there job cuts, Tim?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We will get to the decision, but I won't take interjections from people who've mobilised against the interests of science and who've diminished the role of science in so many aspects of Australian life. There are no funding cuts from this government. There's nothing but support, including additional support on top of the billions of dollars of funds that we provide every year. In fact, it was the Abbott government, in 2014, that started the problem with savage cuts to the CSIRO's capacity. They were mobilised by an ideological antipathy towards science and the modern world. That's what drove that.

What is happening here is that CSIRO management are making some decisions about what are the priority areas of research for the CSIRO, what research programs are going to be strengthened and where work is going to either not continue or be altered. That is the truth. As the minister, I expect every research dollar, every dollar that goes into science, to be spent consistently with those national science priorities. I recognise that organisational change—the changes that have been signalled—is very difficult indeed. The people who are affected by these changes are passionate scientists who bring an enormous amount of expertise and hard work to the work that they do.

But the future focus of this organisation, my responsibility as minister and this government's commitment to the CSIRO and to science are to make sure that we have an organisation that is fit for purpose and is ready to meet the challenges that we will need to face. They will be there supporting a clean, affordable energy transition, including transforming critical minerals to materials; addressing the pressing problems of climate change with a renewed focus on adaptation and resilience; applying advanced technologies, including AI, quantum sensing, robotics and manufacturing; improving the productivity and resilience of Australian farms and the agriculture sector; and mitigating and eradicating biosecurity threats to industry, landscapes and communities. Those will be the focus areas and the priorities. That's where the CSIRO, their management and their staff are working together to deliver a stronger, more effective CSIRO.

Claire Chandler (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In rising to speak on this urgency motion here today, I think it's important that we frame up what this debate is all about. The reality is we have been told of a number of job cuts that will be impacting the CSIRO, and, rightly, Australia's science community—and indeed, I think, the Australian community more broadly—are concerned about the impact that these job cuts could potentially have on our national research capabilities. They are also concerned about where these job cuts might be happening and what areas of research we're not going to be able to focus on quite as strongly if these job cuts take place.

One of the reasons we're having this conversation here today is that Australians need to know the answers to those questions. But, regrettably, we've just had a five-minute contribution from the Minister for Science here in this chamber where he talked about his commitment to the CSIRO—and I don't doubt that that is a genuine commitment on the part of Senator Ayres—but provided no clarity to Australians on exactly where these job cuts will be coming from and exactly what impact that is going to have on Australia's ability to tackle the scientific challenges that we see coming into the future.

For more than a century, the CSIRO has been the backbone of Australian innovation. It's not just a research organisation; it's the engine room of ideas that have helped shape our nation and, in some cases, the modern world. We know that the CSIRO is responsible for wi-fi, polymer banknotes, Aerogard and advances in agriculture and climate science. All of these initiatives came from the CSIRO. And they are more than just clever ideas; they are the technologies that Australians use every day and that the world relies on.

But we know that under this government there have been a significant number of job cuts from the CSIRO. In the last 18 months, the organisation lost more than 1,000 jobs—818 of those since mid-2024—and now, as I said, we've heard from the government that another 300 to 350 research roles will be cut in the future, as announced this month. These are more than just numbers. They represent expertise in marine science, biosecurity, crop protection, mineral resources—areas critical to our national sovereignty and our food security. The fact of the matter is that the government is not being upfront about where these cuts are going to come from. It would be very easy for them to come clean with Australians and explain where the cuts are going to come from. I think if they could do that, and clearly demonstrate how CSIRO is going to be able to still deliver on its priorities, then perhaps there wouldn't be quite the level of consternation there currently is within the broader community. But, again, we had a five-minute contribution from the minister for science in here this afternoon where he failed to do that.

I've looked through the areas that have been talked about for potential job cuts and I've looked at the geographical parts of this country where that important research is done. Cuts to the environment could mean up to 150 jobs gone. It could mean cutting Hobart's marine hub and the Aspendale climate centre. Health and biosecurity could mean around 110 roles could be lost here. Boggo Road and Waite Campus could be stripped of disease prevention and biosecurity expertise right when global health threats are rising. Agriculture and food could see up to 55 job cuts in this area—again, losing skills in resilience and food innovation—risking our own productivity and our own food security. Mineral resources could have up to 35 jobs gone. Perth and Brisbane would be likely to lose critical mineral processing and engineering talent, which is vital for clean energy and supply chains, and I know these talents are so important to the local industries in those areas.

I'm not trying to scaremonger here. If I'm wrong about these job cuts—these are just a few numbers that I've put down on a bit of paper based on publicly available information—then I would love for the minister to tell me so. I would love for the minister to come into this chamber and tell the Australian public the exact nature of these cuts so that we can understand them more fulsomely. These cuts don't just hit the CSIRO; they hit families, local jobs, regional economies and Australia's sovereign capability.

Peter Whish-Wilson (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Pocock for bringing forward this motion, and acknowledge that the Senate has just passed a motion for a references inquiry into these job cuts at CSIRO. It's a very important opportunity for us to get to the bottom of how CSIRO got to a point where it had to not only sack or retrench 850 workers recently but also target job cuts for 350 scientists and researchers across the organisation.

In my home state of Tasmania, we have about 400 staff at CSIRO in Hobart. They are absolutely critical to our community down there, to our economy and to our reputation as a global science hub. And this is not my first rodeo on this. I chaired a select committee in 2016 into the LNP's attempt to cut 350 jobs at CSIRO. In that case, we worked out something that's really important and very relevant to this situation. Public good science—that is, science that should be funded by the public, not commercialised or monetised—is the first science to go when we see these restructures and retrenchments. The witness evidence we got back then was very clear: there was an attempt to try to monetise science across CSIRO. Individual researchers, including climate researchers, ocean researchers, environment researchers and water researchers, who are doing this important, public-good science, dealing with some of the greatest challenges of our time, were told by their division heads they had to go out and find revenue to justify their existence. What have we found out already out of the 350 science cuts? Minister Ayres confirmed last Friday that they will be from the Environment Research Unit, which is oceans, atmosphere, climate, water and nature—public-good science. A hundred and fifty jobs out of the 350 will come from public-good science and from the Environment Research Unit. Sadly, most of the 400 scientists in Tasmania are from the Environment Research Unit. You do the maths.

We cannot afford to lose those jobs in Tasmania. We can't afford to lose science jobs anywhere in this country. Science is under siege globally. There's never been a more important time for this country to show that we value science and scientists by investing in scientific research. I support scientific research for commercial applications in agriculture, in AI and across a whole range of difference areas. We do need more R&D and innovation, and CSIRO has a great record in that. That's why we have wi-fi and lots of other inventions. They've come from research from CSIRO. We cannot target and defund public-good science at a time when it's most critically needed. We need to find out how CSIRO got to a point where they ran out of money and had to sack scientists. I'll ask—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Whish-Wilson.