Josh Dolega (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Senator Ayres. Twice now voters have backed the Albanese Labor government's commitment to protect the environment and deliver cheaper and cleaner energy. With our abundant renewable resources and the falling cost of renewable generation, we have the chance to lower emissions while delivering more investment, more good jobs and a more productive economy. How is this government delivering cheaper and cleaner energy, and why is this government prioritising coherent and stable policymaking?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'll just say that today in the electricity system there are 3.8 gigawatts of outages in the coal-fired electricity system—a thousand of those are planned and 2.8 gigawatts are unplanned. This is in the system that this lot thinks should be doubled, tripled or whatever the latest policy catastrophe is that it emerges from over there.

Today, when we have representatives from our Pacific partners and their faith groups in the building, we have catastrophic fire danger in the lower Central West plains and the highest November temperatures in years in Sydney and Brisbane. We are a party that takes climate change and emissions policy seriously. I think those opposite only remember the political embarrassment from 2019 and the bushfire season. We remember the human cost, the social cost, the economic cost and the environmental cost. They just remember the political embarrassment of what happens when you don't have a serious approach to climate, to energy, to climate adaptation and to building an energy system that is in Australia's interests.

Our plan to lower emissions will deliver the cheapest possible energy for families and businesses. It's why we've got the Cheaper Home Batteries scheme, cutting power bills already for more than 100,000 households—most of them in our outer suburbs—and adding more than 1,000 new households every day. That's what these people want to campaign against. That's why we have the Solar Sharer scheme, giving people and businesses free electricity in the middle of the day, and there's plenty more.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Dolega, first supplementary?

Josh Dolega (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thanks, Minister. Two minutes sure does go quickly. The Albanese Labor government's energy policy is delivering the cheapest firmed power available—renewables backed by gas, batteries and hydro—to replace old coal power stations. Why is replacing these unreliable coal power plants a priority for the government?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, when the lights go out, Australians can be confident what the reason is. It's because these old coal plants shut without warning. They love these old coal-fired power stations over there. They want to invest public money in them—unless poor old Senator Bragg gets his Don Quixote tilting-at-windmills hopeful campaign up—sweating these plants for longer. When there's an unplanned outage, which happens every day, what happens? There are reliability challenges, but, also, power prices go up. Power prices go up because what's required is for our gas power stations to step in, and that pushes the price of power up. Your plan, your legacy, is higher prices, less investment and less generation.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Dolega, second supplementary?

Josh Dolega (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The Albanese Labor government is not supporting coal power through the Capacity Investment Scheme and is not subsidising or funding new coal power stations. Why is the government not supporting new coal power stations?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The answer to that question—and it's a very good question, a characteristically good question from Senator Dolega. The reason we're not going to be investing taxpayers' money in coal-fired power stations, which is your approach, is because it would make electricity more expensive. There's poor old 'dopey Dan' over there. His strategy—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Ruston?

Anne Ruston (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Health and Aged Care) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think you probably know what I'm going to ask the minister to do—address those in the other place by their correct title.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Ayres, I will ask you to withdraw and remind you to address those in the other place by their correct titles.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I withdraw. The member for Wannon's plan to sweat these coal assets, as he says, is only mildly less dopey than Senator Canavan's plan—which never eventuated—to build a magical, publicly funded coal-fired power station in Collinsville. Not a fence was built. Not a dollar was installed. Not a hole was dug. There wasn't even a photo opportunity in that giant boondoggle.

Susan McDonald (Queensland, National Party, Shadow Minister for Resources and Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Senator Ayres. Minister, a CEO of an Australian energy generator told the Australian Energy Council last week that net zero is one of the biggest things Australia is trying to do in such a short space of time, and having no thought-through, detailed plan on how to achieve the cost of doing it is probably going to halt the transition when the populists go, 'Hell no, can't afford it.' Minister, how high will energy prices get under your net zero plan before Australians do say, as one of our energy sector CEOs put it, 'Hell no, can't afford it'?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is an extraordinary question, really, to try and find in that organisation's discussions, to try and work your way through to find somebody in the energy sector who actually agrees with the sort of feral wildness that has overtaken the Liberal and National parties on energy policy. The Australian Energy Council say:

… the Australian Energy Council, supports an economy-wide interim emissions reduction target as an important step towards achieving net zero.

They say:

Interim targets serve to provide certainty to industry and the broader economy about the expected investment pathway.

The interim target will be challenging, but that is not a reason to stop trying.

That is what industry is demanding. The Australian Industry Group—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Ayres, please resume your seat. Senator McDonald?

Susan McDonald (Queensland, National Party, Shadow Minister for Resources and Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister is obviously trying to find the answer, so I'm turning him back to relevance—how high will energy prices get under your net zero plan?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator McDonald. The minister is being relevant to your question.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question—through you, President—was about the Australian Energy Council, and I'm answering it. It is impossible to find a serious contributor in Australian industry, in the energy sector, in manufacturing, in the business community, who thinks that a preferable position would be a disorderly transition run by the show over here. I understand that the impulse for danger, the impulse for wrecking, the impulse for self-indulgence has overtaken here, but the problem is that the people who pay for your policy self-indulgence are ordinary Australians. When you're self-indulgent about energy policy, ordinary Australians pay.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McDonald, first supplementary?

Susan McDonald (Queensland, National Party, Shadow Minister for Resources and Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, since we signed up to net zero, energy prices have skyrocketed nearly 40 per cent, and gas prices are up 46 per cent. Minister, have you modelled how much higher energy prices will have to be to reach net zero compared to not doing net zero? If so, how much higher will energy and gas prices have to be to reach net zero?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The word 'we' in that question is doing a lot of work; it really is. When you say, 'We signed up,' who's the 'we' that we're talking about? It's Mr Taylor, right? Mr Taylor, Ms Ley, Mr Morrison, Mr Joyce—all of you.

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I couldn't be more directly answering that question.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McDonald?

Susan McDonald (Queensland, National Party, Shadow Minister for Resources and Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question is: how much higher will prices go?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That was part of the question, Senator McDonald. There was a preamble, and the minister is being directly relevant.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm reminded of Muhammad Ali, who said: 'Me. We.' We—all of us. If only that small moment of policy coherence could extend its way through, just imagine what would happen. Poor old Senator Canavan over there, who's sort of running this— (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McDonald, second supplementary?

Susan McDonald (Queensland, National Party, Shadow Minister for Resources and Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, Australians already can't afford their energy bills. Can you at least tell them how much taxpayer funding will be spent on pre-COP in the Pacific?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McKenzie, I think if you look around the chamber you will see that I'm in the chair and I make those decisions. Minister Wong?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'd ask you, President, to consider whether that question is in order as a supplementary question to the primary which was made.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It was a tenuous link, but we'll give Minister Ayres the opportunity to answer that question.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm tempted to spend a bit of time on tenuous links, but the point here, as Senator Canavan pointed out, is that at the end of the miserable period of the Morrison, Abbott and Turnbull governments, which did so much damage to Australia's electricity system, electricity prices had risen by 91 per cent. Because of that disinvestment that occurred, four gigawatts out and only one gigawatt back in—Snowy 2.0 started at $2 billion and is now $12 billion because of their mismanagement—electricity prices for ordinary Australians are higher than we would like. That's true. There is a consequence. Your self-indulgence, your incapacity, means that real Australians pay. You wrecked the electricity system. We are building a new electricity system. You wrecked it, and ordinary Australians pay. (Time expired)