Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party
2:50 pm
My question is to the minister representing the Minister for Social Services, Senator Fierravanti-Wells. Yesterday, in defending her understanding of the government's misleading argument against Labor's sensible reform of excess dividend imputation cash refunds, the minister said:—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Government Senators:
Government senators interjecting—
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party
'More than half of all refunded franking credits are paid to individuals who earn less than the $18,200 tax-free threshold.' Given the minister's explanation was clearly wrong, can she explain how superannuation payouts and drawdowns of savings other than superannuation to fund retirement are treated? How does this impact on the misleading argument the minister attempted to make yesterday?
Scott Ryan President
Senator Cormann on a point of order.
Opposition senators interjecting—
Order on my left, Senator Watt, Senator Carr, Senator Bilyk.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Finance
I would invite you to consider whether the question that was at the end of the question was actually related to the minister's portfolio. I would put it to you that it wasn't.
Opposition senators interjecting—
Scott Ryan President
Order on my left. I will hear from Senator Wong now.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
On the point of order, we are referencing a statement she made in question time yesterday, and the question goes directly to the statement she made, which was wrong. If she'd like to correct it without us asking a question, we're open to that.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Finance
On the point of order, whatever was referenced in the preamble, it was not what the question was about. The question did not relate to the minister's portfolio responsibilities.
Scott Ryan President
I will hear from Senator Wong and then I will rule.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
It is clear precedent that a minister can be asked about statements she or he has made. Senator Cormann, listen to the question. It was directly relevant to the misleading statement that she made yesterday.
Scott Ryan President
Senator Wong, I'm prepared to rule on this. Ministers are allowed to be questioned about statements they have made, including in the chamber. That part of the question was entirely in order. The question was substantial. Ministers are entitled to address parts of the question as they see fit. I cannot direct a minister how to answer any part of a question. But I remind senators that the question was lengthy, and the minister is entitled to address parts of it. I cannot direct her to address all of it. Senator Fierravanti-Wells.
Concetta Fierravanti-Wells NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for International Development and the Pacific
2:53 pm
I think the only thing that's misleading is you and your policy, where you have declared war on pensioners and retirees, many of whom will be thousands of dollars a year worse off. You plan to double-tax pensioners and retirees in a bid to bail your leader out of a budget black hole that he cannot pay for. But guess what? There are exemptions. And despite taking money off pensioners and retirees, he is exempting union slush funds connected with the CFMEU and other Labor-aligned bodies. This means that groups associated with big unions will continue to receive franking credit refunds but many pensioners and retirees won't.
Labor's latest tax grab does not target wealthy retirees. More than half of all refunded franking credits are paid to individuals who earn less than the $18,200 tax-free threshold, including pensioners and self-funded retirees. Ninety-seven per cent of people who receive franking credit refunds have a taxable income below $87,000—people who have worked hard, saved hard and paid tax.
Scott Ryan President
Order, Senator Watt! You asked the question. Senator Reynolds on a point of order.
Linda Reynolds WA, Liberal Party
I am sitting directly behind the minister and I cannot hear what she's saying over the noise.
Scott Ryan President
I am now going to be strict in calling senators to order. That is the second request from a senator in the chamber during question time, in this case in very close proximity to the minister.
Helen Polley Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Assistant Minister to the Leader (Tasmania)
She's just trying to protect Connie.
Scott Ryan President
Please cease interjecting, at least while I'm speaking from the chair.
Concetta Fierravanti-Wells NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for International Development and the Pacific
Labor's policy will hit any person who holds shares in a company and has a low income. That includes all retirees with low incomes and small shareholdings, including pensioners. The changes once again show that the Leader of the Opposition wants to penalise Australians for working hard. New figures released this week show thousands will earn less and be hit by Mr Shorten's tax grab. (Time expired)
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party
2:56 pm
() (): I refer to the Grattan Institute's report The real story of Labor’s dividend imputation reforms.
Michaelia Cash WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Jobs and Innovation
You're talking about the Grattan Institute?
Scott Ryan President
Order on my right! On this occasion, I would like to hear the question.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party
I didn't realise the Grattan Institute was apparently a militant organisation like the RSPCA.
Scott Ryan President
Senator Watt, you will run out of time if you don't continue your question.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party
I refer to the Grattan Institute's reportThe real story of Labor’s dividend imputation reforms. It states:
These claims are deeply misleading. Taxableincome ignores the largest source of income for many wealthier retirees: tax-free superannuation.
Is the Grattan Institute correct in saying the government's argument is misleading? If not, why not?
Concetta Fierravanti-Wells NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for International Development and the Pacific
I was about to make a comment in relation to the premise of that question not being absolutely accurate about the reputation. But I won't go there. As I was saying, the changes once again show that the Leader of the Opposition wants to penalise Australians for working hard.
Scott Ryan President
Senator Fierravanti-Wells, please resume your seat. Senator Wong, a point of order?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
On direct relevance, Mr President. This is embarrassing. The minister cannot even answer a question about taxable income. She can't even make a pretence of it. She has to go straight to the Leader of the Opposition. The question is—
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
The point of order is direct relevance! May I be heard, Mr President! I hadn't finished.
Scott Ryan President
Order! Everyone please resume their seats. There was baiting and response around the chamber. I will hear Senator Wong conclude her point of order in silence, then I will hear from Senator Cormann.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
Mr President, I did not raise a point of order on the first question given that—
A government senator: You raised your voice.
Scott Ryan President
I didn't hear where that was from, but can I please hear Senator Wong in silence.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
Thank you. I did not raise a point—
Zed Seselja ACT, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Science, Jobs and Innovation
So sensitive!
Scott Ryan President
Order! Seriously! we've had a number of senators say they can't hear question time. Can I please hear the point of order in silence. I will then make a ruling. Senator Wong.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
Thank you, Mr President. We did not raise a point of order in relation to the first question, given that you had indicated that there were a number of aspects to that question. This question is only in relation to taxable income. It cannot possibly be directly relevant for the minister to stand up and immediately say 'the Leader of the Opposition'.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Finance
Thank you very much, Mr President. I recognise your earlier ruling. Nevertheless, any question on taxable income should by necessity be directed to the Minister representing the Treasurer. If the Labor Party tactics committee decides to address questions about taxable income to the minister representing the social services minister then they should not be surprised about the answer they get. As you indicated, Mr President, you can't direct the minister to answer the question, and she will answer it consistent with her area of responsibility.
Senator Jacinta Collins interjecting—
Scott Ryan President
Senator Collins, I am prepared to rule. We have had quite a lot of debate on this point of order. Senator Wong, I heard only half of a sentence from Senator Fierravanti-Wells. You have taken the opportunity to remind the minister of the question, and I have the question in mind. But I am not going to rule on a minister not being relevant when they haven't completed a single sentence, because I can't tell where they are going to take it.
Scott Ryan President
Senator Collins was on her feet first. I'll take her point of order, if she wishes. And then I'll come to you, Senator Macdonald.
Jacinta Collins Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary
He's moved onto another matter, by the sound of it.
Scott Ryan President
Your point of order was on that matter, Senator Collins?
Jacinta Collins Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary
It was on the one you've already ruled on.
Scott Ryan President
I just thought I'd check, as a courtesy. Senator Macdonald.
Ian Macdonald Queensland, Liberal Party
A point of order, Mr President: you made a very clear ruling that you would not accept interjections. While you were talking, Senator Wong continually interjected. She is a member of the CFMEU and doesn't think that the—
Scott Ryan President
Senator Macdonald, please resume your seat. I doubt any of us have a halo in this chamber when it comes to interjections, so I'm not going to judge people by a standard of perfection. I call Senator Fierravanti-Wells.
Concetta Fierravanti-Wells NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for International Development and the Pacific
I am advised, in my capacity representing the Minister for Social Services, that figures that were released this week show thousands earn less and will be hit by Mr Shorten's tax grab. Can I just provide some figures?
Scott Ryan President
Senator Fierravanti-Wells, please resume your seat. Senator Collins?
Jacinta Collins Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary
Thank you, Mr President. Perhaps I can remind the minister, with respect to this point of order of relevance, the question is: is the Grattan Institute correct in saying that the government's argument is misleading? If not, why not? That is the question.
Scott Ryan President
Due to the noise in the chamber, I didn't have the opportunity to take detailed notes of that question. The minister is allowed to challenge or otherwise address elements of the question. I remind the minister of the question. There are 19 seconds until the answer concludes.
Concetta Fierravanti-Wells NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for International Development and the Pacific
I haven't seen what the Grattan Institute has said, but I will refer the matter to the Minister for Social Services and, if he has any comments that he wishes to make in relation to it, I'm happy to provide the Senate with that response.
Murray Watt Queensland, Australian Labor Party
3:01 pm
Given the minister's ongoing inability to explain the government's policy position, has anyone taken the time to brief the minister on the government's policy, or has she been excluded from discussions about the government's strategy to respond to Labor's announcement?
Concetta Fierravanti-Wells NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for International Development and the Pacific
3:02 pm
Senator Watt, your attack on the savings of retirees and pensioners means one million individuals and self-managed super funds will be forced to pay tax twice on what they earn from their hard-earned savings. This will hurt 230,000 pensioners. I was about to tell you where those 230,000 pensioners are who are earning less than $18,000: in New South Wales, 210,000; in Victoria, 150,000; in Western Australia, 50,000; in Queensland, 110,000; in South Australia, 45,000; and, in Tasmania, 15,000. These figures show that these people will learn a lot less as a consequence of your $60 billion tax grab that's going to hit pensioners and retirees.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Finance
I ask that further questions be placed on the Notice Paper.