John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

During question time on 15 September 2009 Senator Evans took a point of order and alleged that Senator Cormann had been ‘making a series of gestures towards government ministers’. I indicated that I had not seen the alleged conduct complained of, and I undertook to review the videotape and report back to the Senate if necessary. The video recording of proceedings in the chamber does not show the alleged activity, as the recording shows only the senator asking the question and the minister answering.

During the discussion on the point of order Senator Cormann indicated that he was counting with his fingers the number of questions that were being asked. An occasional incident of such activity, like an occasional interjection, may not be disruptive of the proceedings and out of order, but it is obvious that if the making of gestures became a regular feature of debate in the chamber, and if many senators frequently engaged in that activity, it would be disruptive of the proceedings and not conducive to orderly debate. Successive presidents have ruled that it is not in order to hold up newspapers or placards with slogans or to display objects or to wear clothing bearing slogans. The basis of these rulings is that such activity would not only be disruptive of orderly debate but would allow senators to intervene in debate other than by receiving the call from the chair and participating in debate in accordance with the rules of the Senate. Frequently making hand gestures would obviously be disorderly for the same reason.

I therefore ask senators not to engage in that kind of conduct, but to observe the standing orders relating to the orderly conduct of question time and other proceedings.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Health Administration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I seek leave to move a motion that the Senate take note of your statement.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is the senator seeking leave to make a short statement, which is, I understand, the convention?

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Another gesture, Senator! And if it is for a short statement, the government will agree.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I cannot respond. I can only state what I believe Senator Cormann raised. He sought leave to take note of the statement that I have just made. That is what leave was being sought for.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I ask if the senator is seeking leave to make a short statement.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Health Administration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to make a statement for no more than five minutes.

Leave granted.

I thank you for the statement that you made this morning. If you had not made the statement I would have sought leave to make a personal explanation and to claim that I had been misrepresented because, in making the point of order yesterday, Senator Evans indicated that I had made some gestures at ministers. I did nothing of the sort.

What essentially happened was that I was counting down how many questions Senator Pratt was trying to fit into one minute. The reality is that it has been a habit that government senators asking dorothy dixers, in particular to Minister Carr, go out of their way to fit as many questions into one minute as possible. Indeed, the questions were as long as the minister’s answer. I do not think that that is in the spirit of question time.

I have reviewed the video, as you have, Mr President, and you would have noted that Senator Pratt, in asking her initial question, was actually counting down the number of questions that she was asking. Indeed, even though the clock started a bit late she ran out of time—so many questions had been prepared by the minister’s office for government senators to ask the minister. I made the point during question time yesterday that this is just entirely an abuse of parliamentary process. Question time is about the opposition scrutinising the activities of government.

There is a very clear objective behind all of this. The government is aiming to waste time during question time; it is aiming to run down the clock in order to minimise the number of questions that can be asked by the opposition during question time. As Senator Pratt was running through question after question after question, all of which had been prepared in the minister’s office for her, I was making the point, through counting down the number of questions that were being squeezed into this one minute, that Senator Pratt and the government were engaging in a deliberate strategy to waste time.

There have been suggestions that I made gestures at ministers. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the media it was suggested that somehow I was responding to an interjection by Senator Sterle. I can reassure the Senate that I could not hear what Senator Sterle was saying. I had no idea what Senator Sterle was saying. The only thing I knew was that Senator Pratt was running down as many questions that she could squeeze into one minute as possible. The minister then had one minute to answer. Senator Pratt had more questions given to her by the minister’s office than the minister could actually answer in one minute. It is a very obvious attempt by the Rudd Labor government to avoid the scrutiny of the Senate during question time.

I draw the attention of the Senate to the fact that, when the Prime Minister makes points, whether it is in the House of Representatives or during press conferences, he is often seen to be doing this. How often have we seen the Prime Minister counting down—one, two, three, four? I bet there is footage of press conference after press conference where exactly that has been happening. Mr President, I do thank you for your statement. But if, through my gestures, and through the point of order that was raised by Senator Evans, I have been able to draw attention to—

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Constant interjection is disorderly. Senator Cormann is entitled to be heard.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Health Administration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. If, through my actions yesterday, and through the point of order that was raised by Senator Evans, I have been able to draw attention to a very deliberate practice of the government to avoid scrutiny during question time, if I have been able to draw attention to the fact that they are trying to run down the clock during question time to avoid questions, then I am very happy with what happened yesterday. I think the government should reflect on what the spirit of question time is all about. And I think Senator Carr in particular, and his staff, his hollowmen back in his office, who are preparing the questions for government backbenchers to ask him, should reflect very carefully on whether it is in the spirit of question time for them to prepare 20 questions to be asked to fill out the one minute available, according to the system that is in place.

That was the point I wanted to make this morning. I do thank you, Mr President, for the statement you have made. But I just wanted to clarify: I did not gesture at ministers; I was counting down the questions that Senator Pratt was trying to squeeze into one minute.

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to make a short statement. I do not need long.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Leave is granted for five minutes.

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I have indicated, I do not need long. I only want to make the short point that, Mr President, you have made a ruling in relation to this morning. I am not going to prolong the agony for the opposition. The ruling is—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I might simply point out that, of course, the standing orders are in place. The standing orders have been in place for some time. It is available, if the opposition do not like the standing orders, to take them back to the Procedure Committee—because, ultimately, it is their standing orders that they have sought to impose on this Senate. If the opposition do not like them then they are at liberty to take them back to the Procedure Committee to have them dealt with.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I seek leave to make a short contribution of, what, 90 seconds?

Michael Forshaw (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No!

Jacinta Collins (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No!

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! I am entitled to hear Senator Abetz. Is leave granted?

Leave granted.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the Senate. Firstly, I could, somewhat tongue in cheek, say it is very culturally insensitive of the minister for immigration to require a European not to speak with their hands! But I will not go down that track, other than to say, Mr President—

Gavin Marshall (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If he’d just speak with his hands, we’d be happy!

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is all he was doing, in fact. The Leader of the Government in the Senate, in his point of order, asked you whether Senator Cormann’s behaviour was unparliamentary. I believe Senator Cormann is entitled to a statement from you that his behaviour was not unparliamentary and that the record be cleared. Mr President, I would invite you to rule accordingly.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I seek leave to make a very short statement, just to correct a matter that was raised by Senator Ludwig.

Leave granted.

Senator Ludwig, in his contribution, referred to the fact that these were the opposition’s standing orders and procedures that were put in place for question time. I remind Senator Ludwig that in fact no-one in this chamber has a majority. Unless a majority of members of this Senate approve of a proposal before the Senate, it is not accepted. So a majority of senators in this place believe that the current procedures that apply to question time should be those that the Senate operates under. I would like—

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

And now you don’t like them!

Cory Bernardi (SA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No. We just don’t like your babble, that’s all! Your babbling brook of the Left, that’s what it is.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Ferguson is entitled to be heard in silence.

Alan Ferguson (SA, Deputy-President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So, can I say that, whenever it comes to the decisions of how Senate question time should be conducted, it is a matter for the whole Senate to decide—and the whole Senate has decided that these are the procedures that should operate at question time. So I would like to correct the impression that Senator Ludwig would like to give, that it is the opposition’s question time procedures.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Are there any further senators seeking the call?

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On a point of order, Mr President: will you be coming back to the Senate, indicating whether or not Senator Cormann’s behaviour was unparliamentary?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I was just about to address that issue.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I believe the statement that has been issued by me canvasses the full matters that were raised yesterday in question time. I will be making no further statement.