Senate debates
Thursday, 25 June 2009
Business
Rearrangement
10:43 am
Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
by leave—As I understand it, where we are now is with the last remaining motions about the chamber management for the remainder of the day. The government’s preference in relation to this is to continue to pursue the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme. We want to amend Senator Xenophon’s motion to try to achieve that and we do want to press that with a division. However, having had extensive consultation around this chamber, we do understand that the numbers are, in fact, against us in relation to this matter. We do understand that we will not be able to achieve that. We do then have to consider what our next position will be in foreshadowing that next position. It is a way of at least trying to manage the remaining time that we have available. The time, everyone rightly has pointed out, is slipping away from us.
The next position we would seek is support for a motion which would deal with the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme in August. That would be the sensible course of action because we want to be able to conclude the debate on the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme. It is a matter that the Rudd government took to the election. We do want a cap-and-trade system in place. We do want the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme finalised. That motion would give us the opportunity to do just that in August. It is not our best or preferred position; however, I foreshadow that that will be our course of action. The government will then seek to move a motion to deal with the hours for the remainder of the day, so that we can finalise those bills that are required to be dealt with before the winter recess. (Time expired)
10:45 am
Stephen Parry (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Two minutes only!
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Leave is granted for two minutes only.
Stephen Parry (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I thank my colleague for that. It has always been the coalition’s position to continue the debate on the CPRS, if we have considered the bills deemed urgent and requested as being urgent by the government. We are facilitating this today. We are very happy to return to the CPRS at any stage when these bills have been finished. We have negotiated with the government, once again, to give up our general business for today to facilitate the urgent bills that the government have requested. We believe progress was made yesterday with those bills. If there is time permitting today and if the government want to go back to the CPRS, we are comfortable with doing that within hours that the Senate sits.
10:46 am
Steve Fielding (Victoria, Family First Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Leave is granted for two minutes only.
Steve Fielding (Victoria, Family First Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
This is the third time we have had this debate and it is wasting time.
Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Leave is granted for two minutes only.
Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The Greens will be moving to add to the schedule of business the Migration Amendment (Abolishing Detention Debt) Bill 2009 and the Tax Laws Amendment (Political Contributions and Gifts) Bill 2008. That being said, we see the priority the government has on the climate change legislation in this chamber and it ought to be determined in the sitting. We are not in favour of the idea that there can be no limit put on that debate or no resolution gained now but that, magically, in August we can.
What is more, we can see forward to August, in some way or other, and decide there will be a guillotine in place at the end of the first week in August. Yet apparently the House cannot decide to do that this week. We will be moving to support the government—if it holds its resolve, and it appears to be crumbling—to have the climate change legislation dealt with and brought to resolution. We will not be supporting a failure to do that now and the long-range view that that ought to be imposed in August. We will wait and see the circumstances in August. We want to see a resolution on this matter, but we are not going to commit to something in August that the other parties in this place seem not able to commit to right now.
10:48 am
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Leave is granted for two minutes only.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I want to make a couple of comments about Senator Parry’s contribution, which was, whether intentional or otherwise, really quite inaccurate. He claimed that the opposition was happy to debate the CPRS. Anybody who has watched or was in this chamber at the beginning of the week will know that those opposite have thrown all their resources, every procedural and political game, every aspect of their strategy, at not having a vote. That is their position on climate change this week. ‘We are going to fight really hard to not have a vote.’ That has been their position. I want to pay some tribute to Senator Joyce because at least he was honest about this. At least he went out and said—
Glenn SterleJohn Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order, on both sides! Senator Sterle, it is disorderly to call out across the chamber, but, also, you are not in your seat.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
As I was saying, I pay tribute to Senator Joyce, who at least was honest. He went out to the Australian people and said, ‘We are going to filibuster and delay.’ But Senator Parry, after doing what he has done as whip this week and what others have done—delayed this vote by every tactic and strategy they have—comes in here and says, ‘Actually, it is Thursday morning, we are prepared to debate it,’ has to count as one of the most hypocritical contributions this chamber has seen.
I just would say this. I saw a newspaper article where Senator Bernardi was saying that the Liberal Party should stand up for its principles. Well, what are those principles? Because this week those principles have been the high and lofty principles of avoiding and ducking a vote on climate change.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The question is that the motion moved by Senator Xenophon be agreed to.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Where is the amendment?
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I do not have an amendment before me. I can only deal with what is before the chair.
10:51 am
Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I move the amendment standing in my name that has been circulated in the chamber:
Insert the following paragraph:
That, on Thursday, 13 August 2009:
- (a)
- the hours of meeting shall be 9.30 am to 6.30 pm and 7 pm to adjournment;
- (b)
- the routine of business from 12.45 pm till not later than 2 pm, and from 3.45 pm shall be government business only;
- (c)
- consideration of general business and consideration of committee reports, government responses and Auditor-General’s reports under standing order 62(1) and (2) shall not be proceeded with;
- (d)
- divisions may take place after 4.30 pm; and
- (e)
- the question for the adjournment of the Senate shall be proposed after the consideration of the following government business orders: Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme Bill 2009 and related bills Car Dealership Financing Guarantee Appropriation Bill 2009 National Greenhouse and Energy Reporting Amendment Bill 2009 Social Security and Other Legislation Amendment (Pension Reform and Other 2009 Budget Measures) Bill 2009 Coordinator-General for Remote Indigenous Services Bill 2009 Migration Amendment (Abolishing Detention Debt) Bill 2009 Private Health Insurance Legislation Amendment Bill 2009. Disability Discrimination and Other Human Rights Legislation Amendment Bill 2008 Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2009-2010 and 2 related bills Excise Tariff Amendment (2009 Measures No. 1) Bill 2009 [No. 2] and a related bill.
Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I move the amendment to that amendment, as circulated in the chamber:
Insert the following paragraph:
That, on Thursday, 13 August 2009:
- (a)
- the hours of meeting shall be 9.30 am to 6.30 pm and 7 pm to adjournment;
- (b)
- the routine of business from 12.45 pm till not later than 2 pm, and from 3.45 pm shall be government business only;
- (c)
- consideration of general business and consideration of committee reports, government responses and Auditor-General’s reports under standing order 62(1) and (2) shall not be proceeded with;
- (d)
- divisions may take place after 4.30 pm; and
- (e)
- the question for the adjournment of the Senate shall be proposed at 7pm; and
- (f)
- following government business orders of the day shall be considered: Car Dealership Financing Guarantee Appropriation Bill 2009 National Greenhouse and Energy Reporting Amendment Bill 2009 Social Security and Other Legislation Amendment (Pension Reform and Other 2009 Budget Measures) Bill 2009 Migration Amendment (Abolishing Detention Debt) Bill 2009 Tax Laws Amendment (Political Contributions and Gift) Bill 2009 – Consideration in committee of the whole of message No 361 from the House of Representatives Coordinator-General for Remote Indigenous Services Bill 2009 Migration Amendment (Protection of Identified Information) Bill 2009 Private Health Insurance Legislation Amendment Bill 2009 Disability Discrimination and Other Human Rights Legislation Amendment Bill 2008 Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2009-2010 and 2 related bills Excise Tariff Amendment (2009 Measures No. 1) Bill 2009 [No. 2] and a related bill.
10:54 am
Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I seek leave to make a short statement.
Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
As I understand it, Senator Brown’s motion includes Migration Amendment (Abolishing Detention Debt) Bill 2009, which I withdrew earlier. In addition, the part in the centre would be the motion I foreshadowed we may be left with. If Senator Brown were amenable to removing the paragraph beginning with ‘Migration Amendment’ and ending with ‘Representatives’ then we would have an amendment that would reflect what we can continue on to do. If not, the government would oppose that on the basis that we have not had a discussion about this particular matter.
Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
by leave—I should also point out to the chamber section (e) in my amendment, which says:
- (e)
- the question for the adjournment of the Senate shall be proposed at 7pm ...
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Currently I have an amendment put by Senator Bob Brown, an amendment put by Senator Ludwig and the substantive motion of Senator Xenophon. The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Bob Brown to the amendment moved by Senator Ludwig be agreed to.
Question negatived.
The question now is that the amendment moved by Senator Ludwig be agreed to.
11:02 am
Bob Brown (Tasmania, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
by leave—I thank the Senate. I do not want to go through the content of my previous statement again, except to say that the Greens will not be supporting this motion because we believe we should not be setting the sitting agenda schedule and outcomes for the first week of the sitting after the winter break. We should be dealing with these matters now. If we have to have further inquiries into the climate change legislation, who knows how many more will be required when we come back after August? We think this is bad process. What is effectively happening here is that the opposition is getting some control of the scheduling in the Senate, and it is the wrong direction to go in.
11:03 am
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
by leave—I just wanted to place on record again that it has been the government’s wish to deal with the CPRS this week. We have been unable to have this bill debated because of the tactics of the opposition and because of the majority they gained on procedural—
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! If those on my left want to seek the call, they are entitled to. Leave has been given by the chamber on a number of occasions this morning for people to make statements for two minutes.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I thank the Senate. As I was saying, the government has been consistent in its determination to have this bill discussed and debated this week. We have been frustrated at every opportunity by the procedural tactics, delaying tactics and irresponsibility of the opposition. The benefit in this promotion from Senator Xenophon is that it brings down the bar on your filibustering and your delay because what it makes clear—
Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I raise a point of order. Leave was given to make a statement, which usually means an explanation. This speaker is getting into debate and argument and accusation. That is not in the spirit of the leave given for a statement. Leave was not given for a debate.
Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Thank you, Mr President. The government’s view is that, given the behaviour of the opposition this week and the fact that the government have not had the majority in this chamber for debate, we want to bring down the boom on the filibustering, the delaying tactics and the avoidance of a vote on the other side. So what this motion will mean is that the next time we come back here the opposition will finally have to have a position, which has thus far been completely lacking, on the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.
11:06 am
Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I seek leave to make a short statement.
Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Obviously we have to put on the record that this is part of the process of the debate. Part of the process of the debate is to give us as much time as humanly possible to get more information out to the Australian people to clearly convince them what an absolutely ridiculous scheme this is—what an absolutely ridiculous process this is that we are moving to a bankers and bureaucrats discussion on it—and we will. The more time we get, every day, every minute, we will—
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Joyce, resume your seat. You are entitled to be heard in silence as much as Senator Wong and other senators. Those on my right, Senator Joyce is entitled to be heard in silence.
Barnaby Joyce (Queensland, National Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
This bankers, bureaucrats and brokers scheme that the Labor Party have concocted is going to do absolutely nothing for the environment and is going to do everything for a certain clique of people who no doubt they have had long discussions with. We will use every minute of every day to try and convince the Australian people to go on that journey, to clearly explain what happens to our economy if this thing were ever to come into place. If this thing ever comes into place, it is regional Australia—your seats, Labor seats—that will get flushed down the toilet. You do not care about that—and all for a gesture; all for a gesture that does absolutely nothing for our environment but does everything for your ego.
11:08 am
Stephen Parry (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I seek leave to make a short statement.
Stephen Parry (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Could I just indicate to the chamber, because of some of the falsehoods just being presented, that the CPRS has not appeared on the Order of Business for two days in a row—neither yesterday nor today. We are ready to debate this bill after consideration of the urgent legislation that the government particularly wants to achieve. There are budget measures, appropriations bills, and they need to be passed. I ask this question: what would have happened if we had not provided time for these bills to be debated?
11:09 am
Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I seek leave to make a short statement.
Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I just wanted to respond to some of those complete furphies that Senator Parry has just put on the record. This chamber has been turned into a farce by the lack of management of that man. Because you are so split, you have not got a clue what you are going to do on this bill.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Conroy, your comments should be addressed to the chair and not across the chamber.
Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I accept your admonishment, Mr President. Senator Parry thinks he is actually in charge of this chamber. He thinks he can avoid having to face up to the massive divisions on that side of the chamber on this bill. If you are so concerned, bring it on; have the vote. It really is quite embarrassing to watch the contortions you are going through in embarrassing yourself to protect your colleagues. Let the sceptics loose; let them out! Let’s have the vote. Let Barnaby have his vote. You want debate; you want a vote: bring it on!
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Senator Conroy, if you are referring to other senators you need to refer to them by their correct titles and you should address your comments to the chair. Senator Conroy.
Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I know exactly how I’m going to vote. Do you?
Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Well then, come on, bring on the vote. This chamber has been turned into a farce all week because Senator Minchin cannot control his own troops and Senator Parry has not got a clue what he is doing in trying to manage the chamber.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! Resume your seat. When I have silence I will ask you to continue. Senator Forshaw, you have a point of order?
Michael Forshaw (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I am actually tempted to seek leave to make a short statement about people seeking leave to make short statements. But I would ask you to draw to the attention of those senators in the opposition who are constantly interjecting that they should at least do so from their own seats.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! When there is silence we will proceed. Senator Conroy.
Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
All we have to do is actually have the bill brought before us. Bring the bill on, have the vote. What are you afraid of? Why are you turning the Senate into a complete farce—thinking that you are in charge to determine the government’s order of bills and business and times? You think you are in government still. You have not got over the fact that you have lost. It is time that you woke up to yourselves. Bring the bill on, stop hiding your divisions and let’s have the vote.
11:12 am
Steve Fielding (Victoria, Family First Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I seek leave to make a short statement.
Steve Fielding (Victoria, Family First Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Looking at the motion itself—and I suppose that is where the debate should be—paragraph (a) says that the hours of the meeting shall be to the adjournment. Doesn’t that mean that, even if we are looking at amendments to the CPRS legislation, it could be 2 or 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning? Is that conducive to making decisions?
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The question is that the motion moved by Senator Xenophon be agreed to.
Question agreed to.
Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, could I take a point of order and just seek your clarification of what has just happened. I notice the amendment proposed by Senator Brown of the Greens to that motion. After lecturing us on dealing with the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, I notice his amendment for the order of business did not include the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme. Is that is correct?
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
That is not a point of order. It might be a good debating point but it is not a point of order.
11:14 am
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I seek leave to make a short statement which is really in the form of a question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate.
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I think that among all the confusion and delaying this morning the Senate has become a bit lost in the processes. I want to ask the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate if he would make clear to the Senate what legislation the opposition—and, I suppose, Senator Fielding as well, as he has been in the cart with the opposition throughout these debates on processes—are prepared to allow the government to deal with in this session, because, having now defeated any prospect of us dealing with the CPRS, we recognise that—
Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Health Administration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
You just agreed to defer it!
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
We are waiting for your backdown speech on alcopops, Senator Cormann. We have a request to deal with urgent legislation—legislation which the opposition has said all week is urgent—but we currently have no guarantee, apart from comments by Senator Parry earlier in the week, that they would deal with the legislation. Under the current hours available to us in legislation, we will not deal—
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Is there any chance of you controlling your backbenchers, Senator Minchin—or have you lost complete control?
Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
If you sat down, we could get on with it.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! Senator Evans is entitled to be heard in silence.
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
We have the situation where, effectively, the opposition has prevented the CPRS bill being brought on for debate this week. I accept that result. We disagree strongly; but we accept that that is the view of the Senate. We are now in a position where we have urgent bills—budget bills and other bills—that we want passed this session. At the moment, on the current hours, we will not get those passed. I ask the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate to indicate to the Senate which bills they are prepared to consider and whether they will consider extra hours to carry bills that we say are urgent and which they have said all week are urgent. (Time expired)
11:15 am
Nick Minchin (SA, Liberal Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I seek leave to make a short statement.
Nick Minchin (SA, Liberal Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I will endeavour to be as calm and rational as I possibly can, in the face of the rather histrionic and frustrated Leader of the Government in the Senate, who is no doubt incurring the wrath of those in the lower house in senior levels of the government, who are saying, ‘Senator Evans, what are you doing upstairs?’ So I understand Senator Evans’s frustration. That goes with being a minority government in this chamber. We put up with that for nine of our 11 years in government. We know exactly the frustration that Senator Evans is experiencing. We experienced it at the hands of the Labor opposition for nine of those 11 years. They did all they could to frustrate us in our endeavours to take legislation through this place.
I suspect that Senator Evans does not understand the extent to which there has been very good cooperation between the two managers of business in this place—between Senator Ludwig and Senator Parry—to ensure that, subject to members of the government not interfering and not making statements at every opportunity, we can get on and debate those bills, which we accept are urgent and which do need to be passed today. As soon as members of the government shut up, we can get on with those bills. We believe there is ample time to deal with those bills today. We have had very productive discussions with Senator Ludwig to make sure that occurs. Indeed, we have gone so far as to say that we believe that before six o’clock there may well be the opportunity to return to the second reading debate on the CPRS. We have made it clear that we are perfectly happy to do that, because we believe there will be time.
We have acted in good faith throughout this week to ensure that the government can get those bills dealt with that we agree are urgent and do need to be dealt with this session. We have cooperated with that to the full extent. You know our view on the CPRS—through you, Mr President—in relation to that particular bill, but we have worked cooperatively with the government to ensure you can deal with your bills. I will sit down, so that we can get on and deal with those bills.