I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his question and I appreciate his keen interest in penalty rates. But it is not, perhaps, as keen an interest as that of the low-paid cleaners who had the misfortune of being members of his union and who worked for Cleanevent when the honourable member, then the national secretary of the AWU, entered into an agreement with the employer which removed all of the penalty rates—

Ms Plibersek interjecting—