Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senator Bob Carr. I refer to the United Nations Agreement for the Establishment of the International Anti-Corruption Academy as an international organisation, which came into force into Australia in August this year. Does the minister recall that the stated aims of this academy are to promote effective—

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! When there is silence on both sides, I will ask Senator Fierravanti-Wells to continue.

Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Does the minister recall that the stated aims of this academy are to promote effective and efficient prevention and combating of corruption? Given the evidence of serious corruption by Mr Eddie Obeid and Mr Ian Macdonald, both of whom the minister included and retained in his ministry when he was Premier of New South Wales—

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Fierravanti-Wells, resume your seat.

Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I wonder if the time could be restarted.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, just continue, Senator Fierravanti-Wells.

Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Given the evidence of serious corruption by Mr Obeid and Mr Macdonald, both of whom the minister included and retained in his ministry when he was Premier of New South Wales and both of whom he defended and protected, does the minister consider that the recent history of the New South Wales Labor Party would make a good case study for those attending the new anti-corruption academy?

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! When the debate across the chamber ceases, we will proceed.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question concerns case studies for the college on corruption. I have got a beauty. I have got a really good one. It is right out of New South Wales, and a beautifully rounded study, concerning the period 1988 to 1995, when ministers of the Greiner and Fahey governments had season tickets to ICAC. There was consideration of building a monorail link between the state office block and ICAC in Redfern!

Honourable senators interjecting —

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Minister, resume your seat.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. The minister may not take these allegations seriously, but the opposition and the public do. He was asked about his period as Premier of New South Wales, not a different period. I ask you to please direct him to the question.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question was broader than that. The minister needs to address those parts of the question that pertain to the portfolio. I have ruled previously on this. The minister still has one minute and 34 seconds remaining to answer the question.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question was about good meaty, juicy case studies in corruption to get to this college, and we have got some beauties. From 1988 to 1995, there was ICAC's finding in New South Wales that there existed in 1989 'a climate conducive to corruption' caused by the behaviour of National Party ministers in that government.

Honourable senators interjecting—

That is a very good case study and we will see that the relevant ICAC inquiry report reaches the college. I think the senator ought to be congratulated because, after a practical suggestion—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Carr, you need to turn this way to address the microphone so that people can pick up the voice.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think that would be a delightful case study. While we are talking about case studies for the college, there is another beauty and that is concerning Premier Greiner himself, who traded a seat in parliament for a job in the Public Service and was found corrupt by ICAC.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Order! Senator Bob Carr, resume your seat. Order on both sides! When there is silence we will proceed. Senator Fifield is entitled to be heard in silence.

Mitch Fifield (Victoria, Liberal Party, Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have a point of order, Mr President. Senator Carr is misleading the Senate. The Supreme Court of New South Wales found that Mr Greiner was not guilty of corruption, that ICAC had made an error.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! That is debating the issue. Order on both sides! I would ask the minister to refer to the question and to address the question, and I would ask for the interjections to cease on both sides. Minister, you have 26 seconds remaining.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question asked me about case studies for a college on the matter of corruption. There is a third that I would want to submit, and that does concern New South Wales politics. It concerns the lost ministers and MPs through a range of scandals under the Fahey government—including one who made telephone death threats—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Bob Carr, resume your seat.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise on a point of order, Mr President. That Senator Carr will not defend his own government speaks volumes. You should direct him to the question.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on the point of order, to make an obvious point. My view is that these questions are not necessarily in order and that they do not go to the minister's responsibilities. But you have ruled them in order and you have generally taken a liberal view of that and I accept that and I am not in any way critical. But I think it is the case that if the opposition want to try to slur the minister by referring to things that occurred not in this parliament and not in his role as minister, they really have to get used to the fact that the glass jaw cannot be the position they adopt. If they make a sleazy political accusation, they have to expect to get beaten up in return.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order, Mr President, the question was very specific in that it asked about the ministers, namely, Eddie Obeid and Ian Macdonald, both of whom are now appearing before ICAC in relation to issues of corruption.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Abetz, just wait a minute. Order, on both sides.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

To seek to talk about every other former premier in New South Wales other than the one actually spoken of in the question, is clearly against the sessional order which requires direct relevance in the answer.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Jacinta Collins (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Parliamentary Secretary for School Education and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on this occasion because you ruled on the last occasion that the question was in order, and it remains so. That Senator Brandis and Senator Abetz do not pay more attention to how they frame their questions is becoming more and more obvious. This question started with reference to the International Anti-Corruption Academy and case studies. If you want to ask a more specific question, Senators, I suggest you frame one.

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have ruled previously and I will rule again that the minister needs to address that part of the question that pertains to the minister's portfolio. I have been very consistent. The minister has three seconds remaining.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will seek further case studies.

Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer to the minister's answer on 21 November, in which he said:

Australia's record, and that of NSW in the years I can speak for, is exemplary.

Given all the corruption allegations put to him about Mr Obeid when he was Premier and all the evidence now coming to light, how can the minister seriously contend that there was no corruption by his ministers during his premiership and that all the disgraceful matters now being revealed by ICAC had their genesis after the minister stepped down as Premier?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, the minister need answer that part that refers to the portfolio.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is nothing in it that refers to my portfolio, but I am happy to struggle otherwise with the relevance of the question.

Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Ageing) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Given that it is likely that the minister will be called to give evidence to the ICAC inquiry, will he arrange his overseas travel commitments to allow this to occur?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, again you can only answer that in so much as it relates to your portfolio.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In starting the current ICAC inquiry, the commissioner assisting spelt out the period it was dealing with, which is 2007 and 2008. As I was not Premier after August 2005 and as there was no ICAC finding against my government in 10 years in government—and that is not a claim the previous coalition government could make; as I have just demonstrated, there were a raft of ICAC findings against Greiner and Fahey, a pile of ICAC findings this high against—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I once again rise on a point of order on direct relevance. The minister was only asked about his travel arrangements to enable him to appear before the ICAC inquiry. Perhaps he wants the public to believe that the corruption started out of the blue in 2007, but he should be responsive to the question.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister is answering the question. There is no point of order. The minister has 21 seconds remaining.

Bob Carr (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I ceased to be Premier in August 2005, I have not been called before an ICAC inquiry into matters that occurred in 2007 and 2008. I am proud again to say that during my 10 years as Premier there was not a single finding on corruption against my government, which is a big contrast to the findings against your colleagues— (Time expired)

Honourable senators interjecting—

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

When the debate across the chamber ceases, we will proceed. Senator Wright is entitled to be heard in silence.