Dave Sharma (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Minister, can you confirm reports in the Australian newspaper that today, for the first time in Australia's history, national debt has hit $1 trillion?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Sharma for the question, and I would make two points. The first is the government is transparent on the nature and extent of government debt. The second point is that, if the coalition had stayed in power, debt would have crossed the trillion dollar mark three years ago. If you had been in charge, gross debt would be nudging $1.2 trillion so—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Sharma was heard in silence, and the minister's response will be heard in silence.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

I know it's an uncomfortable truth for them. It's an uncomfortable truth that gross debt is, in fact, lower every year of the forward estimates compared to that which we inherited. I know that fact is hard for those opposite to—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Sorry, Senator Sharma, I was aware you were on your feet, but I was also aware that your side were being so disruptive it was pointless calling you. I will call you now, Senator Sharma.

Dave Sharma (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

President, a point of order on relevance. My question was quite straightforward and direct, seeking the minister's confirmation of reports that gross debt has reached $1 trillion. That's all I was after.

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Sharma. The minister is being relevant, and I will continue to listen carefully. Thank you.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

The budget statements were very clear. Budget statement 1 made clear:

As at 30 June 2027, gross debt is $1,051.0 billion, $18.0 billion lower than at MYEFO and $173.0 billion—

below the 2022 PEFO.

We know there is a great deal of work that—sorry, I thought you were standing. We know there continues to be work to be done when it comes to the budget and fiscal sustainability. The government has made a set of decisions that have actually improved the budget position compared to what it would have been under the coalition's forecasts and under the trajectory that the coalition had us on.

I trust, as someone who I know is interested in these matters, that you would actually look at the Treasury documents—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) | Link to this | Hansard source

You always love to be demeaning!

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

I wasn't actually meaning to be demeaning.

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Minister—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, you were!

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

You can't tell me what I was thinking!

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

the time for answering the question has expired. Minister Wong, please resume your seat.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Senators! We are just on the first supplementary and I've had to stand already to get order in this chamber. Senator Sharma was on his feet, ready to ask his question, and he couldn't because of the disorder in this chamber. Senator Sharma, your first supplementary?

Dave Sharma (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, the medium-term budget outlook shows that interest expenses are one of the fastest-growing areas of government spending. Will the Prime Minister and your government continue to irresponsibly add to this by continuing to increase the national debt over the forward estimates, as the budget papers show?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

I have been in this chamber for a number of years and I have listened to Senator Gallagher make that point precisely, that interest payments are one of the largest components of expenditure in the budget and why it was so important that Labor delivered the surpluses that we delivered and ensured we had a lower trajectory on debt than we inherited. Senator, it is true—yes, we do live in a time where we know, with the ageing of the population and the nature of the demands that are rightly made of government, fiscal sustainability is a challenge. I would make the point to you that the Treasurer, Treasurer Chalmers, and the Minister for Finance, Minister Gallagher, have handed down budgets that include two budget surpluses. (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Sharma, a second supplementary?

Dave Sharma (NSW, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, in the interest of directness and transparency, how high do you expect gross government debt under your government to reach?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

There are two points I'd make. The first is this is transparently reported in the budget papers. The second is that our debt position is lower than it would have been under you.