Kerrynne Liddle (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Health and Aged Care) | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Aged Care and Seniors, Senator McAllister. Ninety-one-year-old John Wilson spent the final months of his life waiting for care your government had already assessed he needed. His family repeatedly warned My Aged Care that he would die before help arrived. They were right. John died at the end of April. Months later, the day after his funeral, his family received a letter approving his package. The government's own figures, quietly released on budget night, show the median wait for assessment in receiving a Support at Home package is now 12 months. Minister, how many more older Australians will die waiting for care from your government that you already promised them?

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator, for that question. It is always sad to hear about an older Australian who has died, and it is always sad to hear about an older Australian who has died waiting for care. It underlines the reason why the reforms that we are making to the aged-care system are so significant and so important.

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

We know that older Australians have spent their lives caring for their children, building communities and contributing to this country, and they deserve to live the rest of their lives with dignity and respect and love. And it is why we are making the reforms that we are making.

Of course, we come to government with significant work to do because the previous government—

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

the Liberal government—the government that so many people on the opposition benches were part of—cut $2½ billion out of the sector. And they failed to—

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator, please resume your seat. I've called for order two or three times. Show respect. Order! If you have so much to say, put your name on the adjournment list tonight. But right now, in question time, the interjections need to stop. Minister, please continue.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

Those opposite were part of a government that cut $2½ billion from the sector. They failed to meet—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister McAllister, please resume your seat. Senator Liddle?

Kerrynne Liddle (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Health and Aged Care) | Link to this | Hansard source

On relevance, how many more will die?

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister is being relevant to your question, Senator Liddle, and I'll continue to listen carefully.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

Those opposite failed to meet the growing need for home care. And the royal commission revealed what was happening on their watch: neglect. Aged-care workers could get paid more stacking shelves than looking after older Australians. And we know that investments are necessary. We want older Australians to have the freedom, the support and the choices that they ask for to remain at home and to stay in the community that they love. (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Liddle, first supplementary?

Kerrynne Liddle (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Health and Aged Care) | Link to this | Hansard source

John Wilson's ordeal began long before he died. His first assessment was conducted over the phone. Despite being nearly blind in one eye, unable to walk without a frame, unable to dress himself and unable to even cut up his own food, he was assessed as needing only entry-level help. Minister, how could your system look at a 91-year-old man in that condition and decide he needed only the most basic level of care?

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

I would like to call the minister to answer the question, but I'm not going to do that until there's silence. Minister McAllister.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

It's not possible for me to speak in any detail about the circumstances put to me by Senator Liddle, and I appreciate her interest in these issues and bringing them to the chamber. But I do want to speak a little about the approach that we are taking to assessment, because the old assessment approach was not working. The system overseen by those on the other side was not working. It was taking too long.

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

I have asked, since the very first question, for those on my left to listen in silence. You're showing me great disrespect and you're completely ignoring me as the President of this chamber. If you can't listen in silence, leave the chamber.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

The old assessment system was not working. It took too long, it was inaccurate—

Richard Colbeck (Tasmania, Liberal Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

This one's worse.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

and it was producing very unfair outcomes to older people all across the country.

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

So's this one, Jenny.

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

That is why—

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, please resume your seat. My goodness! Senator Scarr, I don't know what possessed you then to interject loudly—and you, Senator Colbeck—after I just explained how disrespectful you were to me. Leave the chamber! I shouldn't have to name senators on my left, but I will.

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

To be clear about the problem, the old system resulted in older people with the same needs receiving very different outcomes depending on where they lived and who did their assessment. It led to very high volumes of high-priority ratings, with some organisations approving more than 50— (Time expired)

Sue Lines (President) | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Liddle, second supplementary?

Kerrynne Liddle (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Health and Aged Care) | Link to this | Hansard source

Your own department confirmed at Senate estimates that one in four aged-care assessments is conducted over the phone, using an assessment tool that has never been independently validated and that assessors cannot override when it gets the answer wrong. Minister, if this system failed John Wilson so catastrophically, how can you tell older Australians and their families that it is not failing thousands more right now?

Jenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, there is a lot of misinformation about the approach that the government is taking, and it is worth getting some of the facts on the record. There are people involved in every single step of the assessment process. The assessment is conducted by trained assessors—human beings—who are highly skilled, who work with older people to understand what their functional needs are and what the evolution of those needs might look like so that we can make determinations about the sort of care that will be appropriate for those people.

Of course, there is an opportunity at the end of these processes for a person to look at the result. A second person looks at the outcome of the assessment. That person is called the assessor delegate. They look at that outcome to make sure that it is right before the outcome is signed off. And there is now a further safeguard whereby delegates can send assessments back to assessors if it is clear that there has been an error in the inputs during that assessment. (Time expired)

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

President, I ask that further questions be placed on notice.