David Shoebridge (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I want to thank my colleague Senator Waters for making the case for this bill on behalf of the Greens and indicate again that the Greens strongly support this bill. But we're going into committee now to consider potential amendments to actually make this bill more than just a symbolic measure but make it a genuinely practical measure, and to consider amendments that would say the government needs to not just put a commissioner in place but treat the commissioner with respect, listen to the recommendations, take on board the recommendations that come from the commissioner and actually start implementing them in policy. So while we strongly support the creation and the formalisation of the commissioner and the commissioner's role, it's important that we look forward to making sure that the work of the commissioner actually informs decisions of the government and decisions of this parliament. No doubt we will hear from the commissioner the compelling evidence that we have heard, for example, in the youth justice inquiry that I'm grateful to this Senate for supporting and sending out across the country to hear about the youth justice crisis.

We're hearing from that inquiry that there is a youth justice crisis across the country. The submissions make pretty hard reading. In the Northern Territory there are kids as young as 10, 11, 12 being snatched in Alice Springs and the communities that surround Alice Springs—sometimes 100 kays from Alice Springs—because of the brutal laws that are in place in the Northern Territory that refuse bail, that incarcerate kids for minor offences. A 10-year-old kid caught shoplifting, maybe because they were hungry and didn't have any food, in a township outside Alice Springs is picked up by the police and the chocolate bar taken out of their hand. No-one asks if the kid's hungry. The kid's whacked into the back of a police wagon, driven to Alice Springs, thrown into a holding cell in the jail, put into a prison uniform, put in shackles, taken to the airport and then flown more than 1,000 kilometres to Darwin and held in a failing, brutal juvenile detention centre. That's the reality that is happening right now across this country and in the Northern Territory.

For the crime of being hungry, a 10-year-old kid is whisked more than 1,000 kilometres away from their family and put into a broken so-called youth justice system. There's broken connections to family, any education connection is broken, they're brutalised—that's the reality, and the federal government could stop it. The federal government could stop it by supporting measures such as Senator Waters put; by saying they should raise the age. Don't put 10-year-old kids into jail; raise the age. The minimum age should be 14 before even contemplating putting kids through the criminal justice system.

The federal government could intervene directly right now, listen to the voices that are coming from the Northern Territory and stop funding that cruel system. Eighty per cent of the police wages that are taking that 10-year-old out of their community and their township are paid by the Commonwealth. Eighty per cent of the airfare that is sending the 10-year-old kid from Alice Springs to Darwin, more than 1,000 kilometres away from their family and connection to country, is paid for by the Commonwealth. If the Northern Territory government decided to put a spit hood on that kid—and they do; they put spit hoods on kids causing suffocation, trauma, torture—80 per cent of the split hood would be paid for by the Commonwealth. And when the Commonwealth puts that child in a proven-to-be-brutal, failing so-called youth justice centre without education support, without medical support, without any of the care that a 10-year-old child needs, 80 per cent of the cost of that child prison is paid for by the Commonwealth. And we just tick and flick this in this place. We just say that's okay.

I think I know what the commissioner will say about a bunch of this stuff. The commissioner will say that the Commonwealth needs to step up. The Commonwealth needs to take action. The Commonwealth needs to be responsible when they're paying for that cruelty. They should be tying all of our funding with states and territories to say, 'You can't spend Commonwealth money torturing kids.' But unless there's some mechanism in place so that the parliament and the government is obliged to respond to the substance of those recommendations that come from the commission, it will just be more wallpaper over this disaster, more wallpaper over the tragedy that plays out.

We need to see the underlying drivers of so-called offending. If a 10-year-old kid is hungry, maybe don't put the 10-year-old child into that appalling, brutal system. Maybe look at the underlying causes. Maybe provide the housing that is needed particularly so that First Nations communities across this country are not living 20 people to a house or 30 people to a house. If a child is hungry, rather than put them in jail, why not put some breakfast in front of them? Why not ensure that there's food at school? Why not ensure that there's safe transport to get to school where you can have breakfast when you start school and a decent lunch? Imagine if we were investing into putting food on the table rather than kids in jail. That's at the core of this stuff. If we had a system that put food on the table instead of kids in jail, we'd have a system that kept our communities safe, that saved billions of dollars and that made us the kind of country we would aspire to be.

I want to commend the committee recommendations here to say that, when the commissioner speaks after hearing from the community, the government and the parliament must answer and must hear. It is abundantly clear, and we've seen it very recently with compelling legal advice given by two senior barristers—one a silk, one a senior junior—that made it very clear that there is an abundance of Commonwealth powers, constitutional powers, the Commonwealth could use right now to start dealing with the youth justice crisis and to start making direct beneficial laws to prevent the kinds of cycles of violence and disadvantage that we see in the youth justice system particularly and in the criminal justice system more broadly. The Commonwealth has entered into treaties for the protection of the child, for civil and political rights, for UNDRIP. There is an abundance of Commonwealth powers. The trigger under the external affair powers—the ability for this parliament to not just be a complicit bystander but actually take action to deal with the youth justice inquiry.

When our inquiry was down in Melbourne, we heard evidence about what would work. If the Commonwealth funded Aboriginal controlled and run organisations and, instead of putting billions of dollars into state and territory governments to be used to police and coerce and jail, that money was redirected to Aboriginal controlled organisations that know how to help their kids, that know how to connect culture and elders into systems that protect and support kids—we know that that would actually radically reduce youth offending. We know that that would put power where it should be—in the hands of elders and communities who know far better how to raise their kids than some DOCS worker or juvenile justice corrections officer or bureaucrat. That's where the money and the power should go, and we'll no doubt hear that from the commissioner after consulting and talking with the community, but, unless the measures are in place to turn recommendations into action, this bill risks being a feel-good moment changing nothing on the ground.

I respect the work of the minister in the space, and I've seen how this minister is connected to communities and brings that experience and perspective to it, but, as so often happens with First Nations issues, the notional responsibility is given to the First Nations minister, who has the connections and understands, but the power is always elsewhere. The power is with Treasury or with the Attorney-General's Department or with Finance. The ideas and the solutions lie in First Nations communities, but the power is always held over in those other ministries. It's about time that changed and it's about time that the power was bought back and the wealth was brought back and connected with communities, because that's the ultimate solution.

Again, I want to thank my colleague Senator Waters for the work she's been doing on this bill and for her work in this portfolio area. We can do so much more, and this amendment and this committee is a chance to do some of that. (Time expired)

Steph Hodgins-May (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to note my support for the National Commission for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children and Young People Bill 2026 and also to associate my comments with those of Senator Shoebridge and Senator Larissa Waters, who I also want to thank for outlining our support and for putting forward an amendment with real teeth that would require the government to formally respond to recommendations made by the national commissioner and essentially give this the teeth that it needs and deserves. This bill enables the commissioner to independently conduct inquiries and make recommendations to government on the priorities that matter most to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities and families.

For too long, communities have been calling for legislation that embeds a strong, genuine voice for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. For too long, the evidence has been telling us that same painful truth: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children are 11 times more likely to be placed in out-of-home care. The system is failing our children. Data from just last week tells us that only one in three Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander child arrives at school developmentally on track. This figure is getting worse, not better. This is not a statistic that this chamber and this government should accept.

Let us be clear: this is a failure of successive governments. It is a failure to meet the targets set under the Closing the Gap agreements. Words on paper mean nothing without the outcomes to back them up. Aboriginal community controlled organisations lead the way in developing culturally safe, integrated supports that genuinely improve developmental outcomes for children and families, yet many of these organisations face significant pressures from workplace shortages, governance challenges and funding constraints that limit their ability to deliver and to grow. SNAICC's Early Years Support program provides the critical backbone support these services need, strengthening their viability and enabling the expansion of the community controlled early years sector that Closing the Gap demands.

Independent evaluation confirms what communities already know. Aboriginal community controlled organisations represent the absolute gold standard of culturally responsive early learning. Supported services reduce administrative burden, strengthen workforce capability and improve performance against Australia's national quality standard. This bill is a step in the right direction, and our children deserve nothing less. But adopting this Greens amendment will strengthen it, and strengthen it we must. Now the commissioner's work begins, and so does this government's obligation to not just hear the recommendations but act on them.

Malcolm Roberts (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The plight of Aboriginal children is well documented. We know that from so many people. Senator Pauline Hanson has been raising this issue for around 30 years. Senator Nampijinpa Price has done an exceptional job as well, and Senator Kerrynne Liddle and indeed the minister there. The plight of Aboriginal children is an indictment on parts of our society and especially on the government. I'm not just talking about the Labor government; I'm talking about previous uniparty governments and the Liberal-National coalition.

I was visiting Badu Island a few years ago in the Torres Strait. A wonderful young councillor stood up and said, 'While there is a Closing the Gap initiative, the gap will widen, because so many people are feeding off the Closing the Gap campaign that they have become dependent on it.' I'm talking about the parasites who are pushing some of the Aboriginal industry. They're white as well as black. The bureaucracy is massive and self-perpetuating. So many of the campaigns are to keep bureaucrats in a job. The bureaucracy is massive, and that means no accountability, and there is the heart of the problem. We now have an Aboriginal industry.

Basic management shows that this commission will have negative effect. It won't help. It will hamper and hurt. The aim is to look good, not do good. There are so many things we see every year in the House of Representatives. The Prime Minister—it doesn't matter who it is, whether Liberal or Labor—and the opposition leader stand up and tell us things about how Closing the Gap is going backwards, and we've still got work to do, but it's all rosy. It's the stuff that comes out of the south end of a northbound bull.

Minister, surely basic management shows that a system that is clogged like the Aboriginal industry is, with so many people feeding off it—consultants, activists, politicians, lawyers, academics—will be only clogged up further. What are your intentions for managing this properly so that it doesn't clog up the system?

Malarndirri McCarthy (NT, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Indigenous Australians) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator, for the question. I certainly reject the assertion about 'Aboriginal industry' being a negative, Senator Roberts. We have, in fact, just this morning, certainly come together with the Coalition of Peaks—bodies that are clearly defined in the way that they work with local communities on the ground.

You mentioned Badu Island in the Torres Strait. I certainly commend our new convener—the joint convener, with me, on the joint council—and that is Donnella Mills, a Torres Strait Islander woman who is very passionate about wanting to ensure that, on the ground, in terms of local people having local solutions and support, they are supported by community controlled organisations.

And those community controlled organisations are accountable, Senator Roberts. They're accountable every year, just like any other business in this country that's provided with either federal or state or territory funds. They are accountable. They're accountable to the parliaments. And they are certainly accountable to this Senate. That accountability is about transparency, Senator Roberts. So I would just caution you, if I may, around the language that you use that really stereotypes, in a very negative way, the good work that is being done by First Nations organisations and individuals across Australia.

I'll just take this moment, Temporary Chair, if I may, to acknowledge the commissioner, Commissioner Hunter, in the gallery, and members of the Coalition of Peaks, and those who came this morning for the launch of our latest peak body.

Steph Hodgins-May (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Minister. And welcome. Senator Roberts.

Malcolm Roberts (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You mentioned the Coalition of Peaks, Minister. There's part of the issue. This is a massive bureaucracy. You've got to have representatives of the peaks. There's no audit. And I'm speaking now on behalf of taxpayers, as well as Aboriginal children and Aboriginals.

I've been to every one of the communities, white and black, on Cape York, and I've asked: What's Close the gap? What do they know about Close the gap? What do they think about Close the gap? Some of the communities there don't even know about Close the gap, because they're not getting the benefits of the funding that's coming from the taxpayers; it's getting hived off by the parasites, white and black—activists, lawyers, consultants, lobbyists, academics, politicians and bureaucrats—along the way.

How is this additional bureaucratic load, this additional constipating layer in the middle, going to strengthen coordination across government? It's adding more people into the middle of this government mess. As I said, it's not just your mess; it's previous governments' messes as well.

Then these are going to be 'advising the Commonwealth'—this is from your own bill. 'Advising the Commonwealth'? How many more people do you need to get advice from? This is getting ridiculous! People across the country, especially Aboriginal people, are laughing at this. Some of them are crying at it.

And then there's the third activity: 'undertaking and commissioning research into systemic issues and barriers'. There's no doubt there are systemic issues and barriers. We can see them. Why do you need yet another group of researchers? This is just going to confuse the mess again.

Then there's 'providing and commissioning educational programs'. Children won't know which way is up, they'll have so many different messages from so many different bureaucrats—so many different parasites.

Next there's 'undertaking public advocacy' to promote the rights and interests of children and young people. We've got so many people in parliament doing that. We've got so many people outside parliament doing that. You've got so many bureaucrats, tripping over each other, doing that.

They're 'to amplify their voices and strengths'. Oh, really? Really? It's not working so far. The nanny state is not working so far.

As to engaging with children: how many more people are going to engage with children? These kids will have their heads spinning.

What about basic needs? Get to the core of the problem. There are, clearly, crucial human needs, and they're being bypassed by these people looking after their own administrative jobs. I also remain concerned about two things. One is that this is a divisive piece of proposed law that is defined by race. It draws distinctions and promotes divisions by race, which makes it racist. It overtly continues and entrenches the them-versus-us mentality that prevails in conjunction with the patronising mentality of victimhood status.

In Aboriginals—and you're an example of this, Minister—we have four per cent of Australians who are Aboriginal; we have 11 per cent of parliamentarians who are Aboriginal. Aboriginals have high potential, but so many are being locked into victimhood. Surely what we need to do is free up Aboriginals to fulfil their enormous potential. They're leading in the NRL, the AFL, business, sport, academics and science, and yet some of the communities are terrible. I think we need to start celebrating Aboriginals rather than locking some victims—

Larissa Waters (Queensland, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Stop calling them parasites, then. What about all the taxpayer money you're defrauding? You talk about parasites. You lie, you steal—

Malcolm Roberts (Queensland, Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'll take that interjection from Senator Waters. I'll make it very clear: she misrepresented me then, because I am not calling Aboriginals parasites. I'm calling Aboriginals fantastic human beings with huge potential. I'm calling them parasites in the bureaucracy—the activists, the lawyers, the administrators, the bureaucrats, the consultants, the academics—who are living off the money that's going from taxpayers to the Aboriginal industry. That's what I'm talking about. This is just going to add more complexity and more bureaucracy.

One Nation policy is to get rid of the Aboriginal industry, to save $15 billion, and instead provide real care through government grants based on real needs, regardless of skin colour. This bill has an aim, I believe, to look good, not to do good. In trying to look good, you do a lot of harm. You just add more to the constipating layer of bureaucrats. Minister, isn't this an option to start celebrating Aboriginals, rather than casting them as victims, and to start giving grants based upon real needs? Isn't that what's really needed here?

Malarndirri McCarthy (NT, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Indigenous Australians) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Roberts, firstly, I agree that we should celebrate First Nations culture in this country. I agree that there are many outstanding athletes, as we saw with the Rabbitohs recently and the great score trier that everybody roamed the field on with AJ. But there are many, many others, whether they're athletes or otherwise. There are professionals in business, in the sciences and in our schools. We've even got our young woman here from Yirrkala, who's doing very well—Siana, I'm watching you as a bit of a trailblazer for us.

You're right that we should celebrate First Nations people and culture, Senator Roberts. But that's probably about as far as our similarities might go, because I certainly reject the assertion that there is no accountability or transparency. As I said in my previous response to you, every organisation that is receiving funding does get audited, whether it's from the Australian National Audit Office or having to provide their annual reports to this parliament. I certainly have many statutory bodies whose reports have to be delivered to the Senate.

That is accountability, Senator Roberts. That is where we differ. You keep asking for audits. Well, audits actually happen as an annual event for organisations, and those organisations that are not doing well obviously get picked up in this as well. Like non-Indigenous organisations and businesses, there are some across the country that don't do well, and they need extra support to get them back on their feet or, like many, they go out of business. The accountability structure is there in terms of the audits, and, as I said, I agree with you in terms of the celebration of First Nations people, but the way we do that is also about lifting families. This is why this bill is incredibly important. It's important because we are listening to what the communities have been asking for for a long time.

I might walk you through just a bit of that history. The Bringing them home report in 1997 actually raised this back then, and we've had subsequent organisations through the Coalition of Peaks. There are 70 organisations who've given guidance on this. I would not dismiss—and I am sure you, as a senator for Queensland, would not dismiss—those who come to us to give advice. That's what this parliament asks for in terms of the Coalition of Peaks and the agreement that we've signed with every state and territory to that Closing the Gap agreement.

We've got organisations like SNAICC, which cares for the children. We've got VACCA, the Victorian Aboriginal Child and Community Agency, and the Korrie Youth Counsel. All these organisations have come forward to say there needs to be this national commissioner. There needs to be a role where the national First Nations commissioner is there for the children who are being taken away, who are in out-of-home care. We've seen those figures rise staggeringly, especially in states like Victoria. Having the ability for the national children's commissioner to work with each state and territory and to inform this parliament is absolutely critical.

Senator Roberts, there are some things we kind of see a bit of similarity on, but probably most not. But I do appreciate your interest. You have shown that at estimates as well in the questions that you've raised around communities. I would urge you and your party to get behind this bill. What Commissioner Hunter will be able to do is know that she has the support of this parliament behind her to work with our kids across the country.

Larissa Waters (Queensland, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I might move us on from the language of racism and division and the use of the term 'parasites'. Before I move my amendment I want to take the opportunity to commend the launch this morning of the first community controlled peak body, the national Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander family, domestic and sexual violence peak. I very much welcome community controlled organisations leading the way. I'm also very conscious that we still have a funding gap for frontline services dealing with family, domestic and sexual violence, and we know that funding gap is even more pronounced for First Nations organisations. I commend the work of the FVPLS, the family violence prevention legal service, and their state organs right around the country. They deserve full funding and funding security, but today is a good start with the launching of that first peak.

I move the Australian Greens amendment (1) on sheet 3659:

(1) Clause 16, page 13 (after line 19), at the end of the clause, add:

Government response

(4) If a report given to the Minister under subsection (2) sets out one or more recommendations to the Commonwealth Government:

(a) as soon as practicable after receiving the report, the Minister must cause to be prepared a statement setting out:

(i) the Commonwealth Government's response to each of the recommendations; and

(ii) if the Commonwealth Government has not accepted a recommendation—the reasons for not accepting the recommendation; and

(b) the Minister must cause copies of the statement to be tabled in each House of the Parliament within 15 sitting days of that House after the report is given to the Minister.

This amendment would require the government to actually respond to the recommendations of the commissioner that this bill is establishing as an independent statutory position. The bill allows the commissioner to seek information from governments to inform her reports and recommendations, but there is nothing in the bill to compel the government to actually respond to those recommendations. I think that is tragic and I think it is very easily fixed. The optimist in me thought it was an oversight; however, it seems to be by design, and I think that is heartbreaking. On a day when we are doing a good thing, to establish a commissioner to look into the needs of First Nations young kids, why the backhand to say, 'Yeah, but we're not actually going to be compelled to respond to your recommendations'?

This amendment would fix that. It would say that the Commonwealth does, in fact, have to respond to the recommendations. They don't have to accept them, but, if they're not going to, they have to provide some reasons why they're not going to accept them. We've given them enough time to do that: 15 sitting days after a report is tabled. That is time enough for considered contemplation and a proper response to what could be a really important role. As we've seen, shame is not enough to compel governments to respond. We've seen the powerful statements from the First Nations children's commissioners around the country, and in my second reading contribution on this bill I spoke into the Hansard the words of Queensland's commissioner Natalie Lewis, who asked, again, what it's going take for the Commonwealth to actually step in? Is it going to take Don Dale levels of human rights abuses? What about the winding back of the protections for kids being locked up in prisons like we've seen in many jurisdictions? What is it going to take for the Commonwealth to step in?

The New South Wales advocate Ms Robinson said a similar thing. She said that nobody gets hurt unless they yell and scream, and she was begging for the Commonwealth to fix that. So, when stakeholders called for this national commissioner, they didn't just want a figurehead. I'm sure Ms Hunter will do a great job, but they didn't want her to oversee business as usual. We need this role because successive governments have let down First Nations communities for so long, and we need this because the gap is not closing. It's getting bigger. That's why I moved a second reading amendment to say we should raise the age of criminal responsibility, because deaths in custody and the incarceration rates, including of young people, in First Nations communities are going up. That is not closing the gap; it is widening it. So we will be supporting this piece of legislation, but surely as a matter of courtesy if nothing else the government should be obliged to respond to the recommendations that the commissioner makes to government.

I did put this to government. I asked them to support this amendment. Unfortunately, their reason for not doing so—which they may well have changed in the meantime; I certainly hope so—at the time was, 'We don't have to respond to the Human Rights Commission either,' as if two wrongs make a right, and as if it's okay to ignore the Human Rights Commission, so it's okay to ignore the First Nations children's commissioner. Well, it is not okay. This is not a requirement for you to sign up holus-bolus to their recommendations. It is simply a requirement to consider them and give a response to them, and that is a reasonable ask.

The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The question is that amendment (1) on sheet 3659 be agreed to