Slade Brockman (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The committee is considering the Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Triple Zero Custodian and Emergency Calling Powers) Bill 2025, as amended. The question is that amendment (1) on sheet 3458, a deferred division, be agreed to.

Slade Brockman (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question is that opposition amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 3459 be agreed to.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move amendment (1) on sheet 3460 revised as circulated in my name:

(1) Schedule 1, page 19 (after line 9) at the end of the Schedule, add:

Part 4 — Civil penalties

Telecommunications Act 1997

18 After paragraph 570(3)(ac)

Insert:

(ad) in the case of a contravention of subsection 148(1) or (3) of the Telecommunications (Consumer Protection and Service Standards) Act 1999$40 million for each contravention; or

(ae) in the case of a contravention of subsection 151D(1) or (2) of the Telecommunications (Consumer Protection and Service Standards) Act 1999$40 million for each contravention; or

From the outset, I want to put on the record that, for nearly a month, the coalition has been trying to work with the Albanese Labor government to amend this bill. Last night, the government claimed they'd been working in good faith with us. Let's be clear—they have not. These amendments were moved in the other place three weeks ago, and, whilst they were supported by the coalition and the entire crossbench, the Albanese government voted against them.

On the same day they declined to support the amendments to this bill, the Minister for Communications said in question time:

I offer, in good faith, that, if that is a live issue for you, given this bill is before the House, we can continue to work on penalties where it is already tabled in the House.

The shadow minister for communications wrote to the minister and accepted this offer, stating, 'Considering the significance of this outage, the tragic loss of life and the significant lack of confidence and trust Australians now have in the triple 0 network, the coalition wishes to accept your offer to continue to work with the Albanese government on this matter.' And guess what the coalition have heard since then? Nothing, absolutely nothing. The coalition has heard nothing from the government. I don't know whether the phones aren't working in the minister's office. Maybe they aren't checking their emails again.

The coalition has been calling for a public register of triple 0 outages so Australians can have confidence in the system and be informed. Optus has now had two major and catastrophic outages in under two years, both under the Albanese government's watch, and both times the parliament had to step in through Senate inquiries and Senate estimates to drag information out of them. This is not right. It is not good enough. Australians expect and deserve more. It is pleasing that the government, however slowly, has finally agreed to make this happen, but it is a pity that the coalition has had to drag the government kicking and screaming to do it.

The other amendment the coalition was seeking was for the reporting mechanism created by this bill to be more frequent and for these reports to be made public, so it was really disappointing last night that the Greens political party have done a deal with the government to deny this transparency mechanism from happening. The Greens have come into this place wanting more transparency and accountability and higher penalties, yet they've sold out for lower penalties than they were seeking and absolutely no transparency, leaving Australians languishing.

The Greens crow about selling out to big corporations. Well, the Greens sold out the Australian people for a rubbish deal with this arrogant Labor government. The coalition asked for penalties of $20 million per year. The Greens asked for $100 million, but they settled for $30 million. The Greens didn't talk to the coalition; they talked to the Albanese Labor government instead. The Greens wanted higher penalties. In fact, Senator Hanson-Young said yesterday:

… I want to say right at the beginning that I still think it should be more. I still think these big companies deserve everything we can give them.

These aren't my words. They are the words of Senator Hanson-Young.

Sarah Hanson-Young (SA, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

And I stand by it.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, the coalition has, Senator Hanson-Young. We have $40 million penalties right here on the table. You can agree to this now and quite literally put the corporations' money where your mouth is, or you can hide behind the secret deal that you've stitched up with Labor.

But the real issue here is the Albanese Labor government and their running away from transparency. Today this place will vote on a Senate inquiry into the September Optus outage, and we will examine all facets of not just this outage but the triple 0 network. The six-monthly reports required in this bill, if not made more frequent, at the very least should be published and tabled in parliament. Public safety and the accountability of telcos should not be sold out. Lives were lost. Our triple 0 network appears to be broken under this government, and the government doesn't seem to care. It's now over to the Greens. Will you cut another deal with the government, or will you support the stronger penalties that you wanted? The coalition will not stop until we have confidence the triple 0 network is safeguarded and we have full transparency and accountability in the system. Minister, last night you confirmed the government will require telcos to have a public register of triple 0 outages. On what website will this public register be?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do want to address the question, but I also think it's important to set the record straight about what has happened in relation to this bill. The truth is that the coalition are a complete broken mess. It is really difficult to work with them in good faith in any way, shape or form because they can't even work in good faith with themselves at the moment. So of course the government worked with the Greens to accept an amendment moved by Senator Hanson-Young to triple penalties in relation to these contraventions. We have always said that there is a further bill with more reform in relation to the full suite of packages that we will be dealing with in the House this week and hopefully in the Senate soon where we will consider even more reform to the penalties regime.

If anyone listened to Holly Rankin's address through the Speaker's Lecture last night, it is clear that this is something that the public wants to see this chamber take action on, not have a debate about who is madder at Optus. Everybody is mad at Optus. It's not a competition about who is madder at Optus. What is important today is that we pass this bill and that we agree to these amendments to triple penalties, as proposed by the Greens. We are doing that because we want to see this bill passed. It is incredibly important that we see this action taken. That's what the public want to see from us today and that is what we are getting on with in spite of the efforts of the coalition to try to claim credit for this. It is really hard to claim credit when you haven't been part of the conversations or participated in any way in making sure that we can take this bill through to completion today.

The telco websites will hold the information. We want the telcos to take responsibility, to be accountable and to do the things that they are required to do by law. That is exactly what the direction from the minister will do. I want to thank senators around the chamber for supporting this legislation today. Let's get on with it. Let's pass this legislation so that we can ensure that triple 0 never fails again.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You've confirmed that the telcos will be the ones who will hold the records of outages on their own websites. If I am an Aldi mobile customer, which website will I go to?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McGrath, not that I need to give you personal advice about how to engage with your telco, but your carrier would be the holder of this information. We want them to take accountability for this information. That's why we are, through a determination and a direction from the minister, demanding that this information be public and that the public can see when these outages occur. This is another way that we are keeping them accountable after the terrible and tragic outage that occurred earlier this year.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So I can confirm there will be no central website where Australians can see who has an outage and when?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can confirm that the telco websites will hold the information, as directed by the minister. We are requiring them to take this step because we want them to be held accountable for the actions that they have taken, on top of all of the measures that this bill will bring about. The Triple Zero Custodian is designed to make sure that we have the powers not only to investigate outages but to take proactive steps to ensure that they do not occur again.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

When will the registers be active?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Certainly, Senator McGrath, as you would understand, we need to pass this bill to ensure that the Triple Zero Custodian is established in law. The public register of network outages will build on the new requirement to publicly report outages and increase transparency and accountability around outages related to impacts on access to triple 0. That register will be set up once the bill is passed.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You can't give a timeframe, in that case. Will this be done within six months?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's a priority for our government to have these registers established, and, of course, passing the bill will expedite that action today.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The register is being established through the standards and not through the bill. In terms of the register of outages that is going to be required of each telco, under the evidence that you've given, what is the timeframe before those registers will be made public?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can seek to ensure that there is as much information as possible about that timeframe available to you. What I would say is that it is a priority for the government, and we will ensure that those registers are set up as soon as possible. Of course, it will be done through standards. It will be done through the Telecommunications (Customer Communications for Outages) Industry Standard. To give you that comfort, we will ensure that this will be done by the end of the year.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister wrote to ACMA yesterday, instructing them to update the Telecommunications (Customer Communications for Outages) Industry Standard to require that telcos make this information publicly available. In that letter, did the minister set out a timeframe for that information to be made publicly available?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have given you that confirmation in the Senate that we will ensure that register is set up by the end of the year. We undertake to work with your shadow minister for communications to ensure that that register is set up by the end of the year.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question was: did the minister, in the letter that she sent to the telcos, establish a timeframe for the outage information to be made publicly available?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I've confirmed to you that it's a priority for our government. We will work with the shadow minister for communications to ensure that it is done by the end of the year. There was a commitment in that letter to ensure that the department is working with the shadow minister for communications to ensure that it happens as soon as possible. I've given you that commitment now that it will be done by the end of the year.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So the letter had no timeframe in it, in terms of when this information is to be made publicly available. That's the evidence you have provided. Can you table a copy of the letter?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can take some advice on that for you.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm sure those in the minister's office are watching this—unless they're checking their emails—and I'm sure they can get a copy of the letter brought down to the chamber so it can be tabled. This issue goes to transparency and accountability. We have been asking questions about whether there is a timeframe in the letter that the minister sent to ACMA yesterday. No timeframe has been forthcoming, in terms of the content of that particular letter. Is there a reason you are unable to table a copy of the letter?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That's a matter for the minister. I have said that I will raise that with her. I just do want to reiterate, though, that I have been very clear about what the direction was. I read that out last night in the Senate, and I have referred to it again today. I can repeat that for you, although I'm conscious that we should not be delaying this bill. I confirm that the direction is to amend the Telecommunications (Customer Communications for Outages) Industry Standard 2024 to mandate that telecommunications providers maintain a public register of their network outages. I have answered these questions for you a number of times. It is a priority for the government, and we will ensure that it is set up by the end of the year.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, with respect, you are the minister. You are here representing the communications minister. In relation to the tabling of this letter, this is something that I think the Senate would like to see as part of its deliberations in relation to this bill. You have failed to give a timeframe as outlined in the letter. You have said that it is the intention of the government to have it completed by the end of the year. What is clear in the absence of the letter being provided to this chamber is that there is no timeframe within the letter that you've been able to speak to that sets out the requirements of the government concerning the publication of this register. While we're waiting for the minister's office to bring down a copy of this letter so it can be tabled, what penalties will the telcos face if they fail to publish real-time updates of network outages?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I can get that information for you, Senator. I've obviously sought to answer your questions as quickly as I can, taking into account that I'm not the Minister for Communications; I'm representing the minister today. I can get that information for you as soon as I can.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I suppose if we had a copy of the letter—this mysterious letter that the minister has sent to ACMA—it may set out the timeframe for the telcos to establish these registers. I suppose my question is: will there be penalties if the telcos fail to publish real-time updates on network outages?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The letter is not mysterious. There are no secret emails. It will be determined in consultation with regard to penalties. We are seeking to pass this bill so that we can get on with establishing the Triple Zero Custodian into law, hopefully today, to ensure that we can take proactive steps about outages before they happen. Of course, a register of outages after the fact is something the minister has directed telcos to do, but the powers in this bill will allow proactive measures to be taken, and they're incredibly important.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So you can confirm that there will be penalties if the telcos fail to publish real-time updates of network outages?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

To be clear—I'm sure you don't have a real-time Hansard in front of you—I said that that will be determined in consultation as the register is developed. What we have done today is agreed to the tripling of penalties to ensure that it is clear that the conduct of telcos with regard to triple 0 is very serious, and the public expects them to comply with the laws they are already required to comply with and any new directions that the custodian or ACMA deliver under these new laws.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Did the letter that the minister sent to ACMA—I just want to understand this fully—explicitly instruct ACMA to consult on the issue of penalties?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said many times in this chamber last night and today, through ACMA, the telcos will be put on notice. They will be issued a direction. The minister will be issuing a direction to mandate that telecommunications providers maintain a public register of their network outages.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

How many telcos are there?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There are three mobile network operators.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So there will be three registers of triple 0 outages?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Can you define the parameters of real-time reporting?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I've said to you that that will be determined through consultation.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So we have a government who have said this is of the utmost importance and they want to punish those telcos who fail to provide the service that Australians expect, but what we've heard today is that there are no penalties; that's going to be consulted on. What we've heard today is we don't have a definition of real-time reporting, and that's going to be consulted on. We've got a government who are good at consulting! They've said this is of the utmost importance and must be passed today, but there are some key issues here. In terms of the penalties and in terms of the definition of real-time reporting, the government is unable to give Australians an answer. So are you able to advise the chamber about how ACMA will monitor and investigate compliance with these new rules?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'll have to get you to repeat the last part of the question, and then I'll respond to the other comments, which are a complete fabrication of what's actually happening today.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Through your knowledge of the letter that the minister has sent to ACMA, are you able to advise the chamber on how ACMA will monitor and investigate compliance with the rules that are being set out by the letter?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Let me be clear about what the key issues in this legislation are. What the coalition seems to be focused on is a register of outages that we've mandated telcos to maintain after the outages happen. What the substantive powers of the bill do is set up a triple 0 custodian that has broad powers and functions to direct ACMA to not only investigate but make directions about actions to be taken, procedures and consultation before an outage happens. And there will be civil penalty provisions provided, based on those directions and the failure to comply with them. So it is not true to say that this bill does not contain those powers. It is not true to say that this bill does not keep telcos to account. And it is not true to say that I have not been clear about the register that we are proposing today and that it will not increase transparency and accountability. What I have said is that we will determine, in consultation, what the parameters are, and I invite the coalition to be part of that discussion. I invite you, Senator McGrath, to be part of that discussion. I invite the shadow communications minister to be part of that discussion. You've said today that you acted in good faith. I think you should act in good faith on the consultation around the development of that register, and I think you should act in good faith by passing this bill today.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, we have acted in good faith. For almost a month, the coalition has tried to engage with the government in relation to these issues. The reason we're raising these specific issues is we specifically tried to build these proposals into the proposed bill that is before the chamber, but we've seen from the government a dislike of transparency, a dislike of accountability, and, with respect, a dislike of dealing with the opposition in relation to this particular issue. Your answers have reflected that today in terms of whether it is the refusal of the government to table the letter that the minister has sent to ACMA.

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order: I haven't refused to table them; I've taken it on notice. You can withdraw that.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm happy to withdraw it for the smooth running of the chamber,but I'd point out that the minister is doing everything in their power to not table the letter. I will be very, very surprised if this letter does end up getting tabled.

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the Public Service) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Standby, Senator McGrath.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

 Oh, no—it's a burn! What we have seen, sadly, with this government is that they're not telling Australians what the penalties will be. They can't even confirm whether there will be penalties. They're saying they will go for consultation on penalties. That doesn't say that there will be penalties. They can't give a definition of what is meant by real-time reporting, so effectively they're handballing everything back to the telcos. We have said consistently on this side of the chamber that the government should be holding the register and that it should be the telcos who are mandated to provide the government with the information concerning outages of the triple 0 network so that it is easier for Australians to hold the telcos to account but also to hold the government to account.

Section 151Q of the bill requires ACMA to provide a written report to the minister within three months after the end of each six-month period. Why will you not support the coalition's amendment or Senator Payman's amendment to have these reports made publicly available?

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I did address this amendment last night on the issue of reporting. There are substantial reporting provisions drafted in the bill. We believe they are sufficient and ensure accountability to the minister. There are, of course, accountability measures in the broader Telecommunications Act that we will rely on.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This government is the least transparent and the least accountable government since the Labor government of the 1990s. Further evidence has come out today in relation to this government's failure to answer questions on notice and to comply with orders for production of documents, and we see with the bills before this chamber that the government does not want there to be a report that is tabled here in parliament. So we'll have a secret report that ACMA will send to the minister in relation to certain issues. On this side of the chamber, we're saying that this secret report should be made available to all Australians, to those who are so interested to read, but also available for this parliament, which is entrusted through the Constitution in this chamber to hold the government to account. It is disappointing that the Labor government is continuing with their tradition of refusing to accept accountability and transparency. I would encourage this chamber to support the amendment that I've moved, and I would encourage the government to table the letter that the minister sent to ACMA yesterday.

Slade Brockman (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question is that amendment (1) on sheet 3460 revised, as moved by Senator McGrath, be agreed to.

Nita Green (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Minister for Tourism) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I now table a copy of the letter as requested. Thank you, Senator McGrath, for your constructive approach to this bill.

Fatima Payman (WA, Australia's Voice) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I move the amendment on sheet 3445:

(1) Schedule 1, item 7, page 16 (after line 24), at the end of section 151Q, add:

(3) The Minister must cause a copy of the report to be tabled in each House of the Parliament within the earlier of:

(a) 15 sitting days of that House after the Minister receives the report; or

(b) 30 days after the Minister receives the report.

Slade Brockman (WA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The question is that amendment (1) on sheet 3445 be agreed to.