David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to Minister for Industry and Innovation and Minister for Science, Minister Ayres. The CSIRO appropriation as a percentage of GDP has fallen by more than 40 per cent over the past 20 years. Why is the Albanese government continuing to reduce funding for the CSIRO in real terms?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you very much, Senator Pocock. The government absolutely values and puts at the centre of our approach to science the valuable role of the CSIRO and the work that it does in terms of scientific research and applied industrial research. This government has made no changes to the CSIRO's base funding. Decisions on staffing and prioritisation, of course, are a matter for the CSIRO's board and management. They know that the CSIRO making sure that it continues to perform its function is critical as we approach some of the big technology challenges that the modern age presents Australia with. It is absolutely vital that the CSIRO stays on task and is properly resourced. I am working very closely with them around those questions. We value the contribution that CSIRO scientists and CSIRO staff make. We want the work that the CSIRO does to be sustainable in the long term.

I note that in the recent budget this government provided an additional $45 million on top of that base funding, to help maintain the CSIRO's world-class research capability as they focus on their role, their footprint around Australia and making sure that they are in a position to discharge that important public function in a way that is focused upon the science priorities that Australia needs to meet as a nation.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, first supplementary?

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think it's shameful to see a Labor government starving the CSIRO of funding. A thousand Canberrans work for the CSIRO. It's an institution we care deeply about. In CSIRO's portfolio budget statement, we can see a drop in the average staffing level of 500 jobs, and, based on the numbers over the forward estimates, it looks like there are more cuts to come. At a time when we need science innovation more than ever, why is the CSIRO losing people?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

():  In terms of that question, that kind of florid rhetoric sounds more like Senator McGrath than the normally sober questions that we get from Senator Pocock. Making those sorts of claims is unhelpful in terms of the regard that this parliament should have for the CSIRO's role—

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Point of order: I'd love an answer. It's on relevance; I don't see how a lecture is relevant.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If Senator Pocock chooses to put political rhetoric into his supplementary question, then he's going to get a response in kind. The minister is entitled—

An honourable senator interjecting—

Sorry, I apologise—on the point of order: if Senator Pocock makes a political statement, he's going to get a political answer. He chose to make a political statement, self-evidently, presumably for social media, and he's getting a response in kind.

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order: my political statement was grounded in the fact that CSIRO hasn't had an increase—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, you are making a statement now. Please resume your seat.

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

But that's what Minister Wong does all the time!

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, the minister is being relevant to your question.

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said in my response to your primary question, base funding for the CSIRO has not altered. This government has respect for the role the CSIRO plays now and the role it must play in the science and technological research required for our future.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Pocock, second supplementary?

David Pocock (ACT, Independent) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, in Abundance, which I understand a number of ministers have read, Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson talk about the need for nations to back abundance, not scarcity, if they are to thrive. Is the reduction in CSIRO's funding in real terms, because you're just keeping it level, reflective of an abundance mindset or a scarcity mindset?

Tim Ayres (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Industry and Innovation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I don't want to be the guy who talks down what is no doubt a very substantial contribution to public policy debate in Mr Klein's book. I haven't read it; it's a bit too 'pop culture in 2025' for me! I'm focused on the kind of reading that's focused upon the technological challenges that we should be focused upon, and delivering an industrial response for Australia that must be science led, that must tackle the challenges of energy and climate change—I was hoping for some energy questions from the coalition today, on this day of all days—and is focused on those challenges: water challenges, agriculture challenges, food sustainability and food security challenges, and defence challenges. The CSIRO are at the centre of that, and they will make changes to their priorities from time to time in the national interest. (Time expired)