Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

ator CASH (—) (): My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Workplace Relations, Senator Watt. In an interview this week with Andrew Clennell on Sky News, when asked whether service contractors were excluded from the labour hire provisions of Labor's IR bill, Minister Burke said: 'Completely, completely. Service contractors have been deliberately excluded.' Can the minister guarantee that there are no circumstances under which service contractors could be subject to a regulated labour hire arrangement and that they are, as the minister has stated, completely, completely, deliberately excluded?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's always good to get a question about workplace relations from the minister who was in charge of these portfolios when a police raid on union offices was leaked from a minister's office. It's always good to get a question about workplace relations—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Straight to the history, straight to the record.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt, order! Senator Watt, when I call you to order I expect you to sit. Senator Scarr?

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

President, personal reflection. I've previously taken exactly this point of order when Senator Watt has raised this matter. It is contrary to what the Federal Court found, and Senator Watt should withdraw, as he has previously.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Gallagher?

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the Public Service) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order, I've listened to Senator Scarr, but I think that is an established fact that's been clear and on the public record.

I'm pretty sure it is.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Scarr, order! Senator Scarr, I heard your point of order. I advised Senator Watt not to be disorderly. I then invited Minister Gallagher, and there was disorder. That is inappropriate and it's disrespectful. I will seek some advice on your point of order.

Senator Watt, I was going to call you to order, prior to Senator Scarr jumping to his point of order, to remind you to get to the question. I am not fully aware of the matters Senator Scarr has raised. I invite you to withdraw those comments and get to the point of your response.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm happy to withdraw, Madam President. The direct answer to the question from Senator Cash is that, as Minister Burke has made clear on many occasions, the government accepts that there are legitimate uses for labour hire in the workforce, particularly in areas such as surge, temporary replacement or specialised workforces. But, as I was saying the other day, when Senator Cash asked me a question about this, if an employer has an enterprise agreement and agrees to certain minimum rates of pay then that employer should not be able to use loopholes within our industrial relations laws to undercut the wages they have agreed to. That's what this is about.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Cash.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order in relation to direct relevance: I quoted the minister and I asked Senator Watt, quite clearly: are there any circumstances under which service contractors could be subjected to a labour hire arrangement?' If the minister is telling the truth, the answer is—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, there is no need to continue on. I will rule on your point and I will remind—

Louise Pratt (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If you know the answer, why ask it?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my right! I will remind the minister of your question.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thanks, President. The next point I was going to make—until Senator Cash interrupted—was that if the arrangement is to provide a service other than labour then that would be completely different and the Fair Work Commission would be able to exclude them. So there will be circumstances where, because of specialised arrangements and specialised labour, the Fair Work Commission will have the ability to exclude those forms of—

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So it's discretionary.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

If you knew anything about industrial relations—I'll take the interjection from Senator Birmingham. If you knew the slightest thing about industrial relations law, you would know that the Fair Work Commission has discretion to decide many, many things—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We know a lot about Labor and lying.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

and Senator Cash should know that, as a former industrial relations practitioner.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Senator Cash, your leader is on his feet. Senator Birmingham.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

President, a point of order on direct relevance: Senator Cash asked a question seeking a specific response to a very specific quote from Minister Burke about whether service providers were completely, completely, deliberately excluded. In terms of the minister being directly relevant—and this was particularly relevant to the exchange just had between the minister and I across the chamber—it sounds like he is watering down the minister's statement that they are not completely, completely, deliberately excluded—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Birmingham, you have now moved on to a debating point.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

and I would invite the minister to be crystal clear on that—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Birmingham, please resume your seat.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

before he gives condescending lectures across the chamber.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order across the chamber! As all senators in this place are aware, if there are interjections the minister may take those interjections. He took your interjection, Senator Birmingham—

and he had started to be directly relevant to the question. Senator Cash, you were very close then to me asking you to withdraw. You used the word 'lies'. I'm just asking people to be mindful of their language.

Opposition senators interjecting—

I am asking all senators to be mindful of their language. Minister Watt, please continue.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you. So—to make it even more clear for Senator Birmingham and Senator Cash—the closing loopholes bill gives service contractors a clear pathway for demonstrating that their arrangements are not those the government aims to address with this measure.

But let's be clear about what this is about. We have a coalition who cannot get over the fact that low wages are not the deliberate design feature of the economic policy of an Australian government.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left! Senator Ruston and Senator Cash! Senator Cash, a first supplementary question?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, proposed section 306G of the bill provides a clear exemption from the regulated labour hire arrangement for training and short-term arrangements. Given Minister Burke's statement that service contractors have been deliberately excluded, can the minister please advise the Senate what section of the bill provides the specific exclusion for service contractors that Minister Burke has referred to?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, I don't have the bill in front of me, but the 'closing loopholes' bill gives service contractors a clear pathway for demonstrating that their arrangements are not those that the government aims to address with this measure. I've already indicated what the intention is here, but the intention of the opposition in this debate is to keep the loopholes wide open—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister, please resume your seat. Senator Cash?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order on direct relevance. I asked the Minister a simple and very clear question: what section of the bill provides the specific exclusion for service contractors? If the minister does not know, I am more than happy for him to take it on notice.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash, you also talked about short-term contracts. I believe the minister is being relevant, but I will continue to listen, particularly to your point of order on direct relevance.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What this is really about is a coalition that still haven't gotten over the fact that they lost the last election. They can't get over the fact that there is a government that wants to close the loopholes. I mentioned earlier in the week that Senator Cash was saying that IR changes would take us back to the Dark Ages, but why stop there? Why not say that it's going to take us back to the Ice Age? That's right—you did that by freezing wages for 10 years. We had frozen wages in your ice age.

Why not go back even further to the Jurassic age, because there are certainly a lot of dinosaurs opposite when it comes to workplace relations policy! The Dark Ages, the Ice Age, the Jurassic age—take your pick! What we know is that you are the people who want to keep those loopholes open, who want to keep workers being exploited and who want to support employers who are undercutting their competitors.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator McGrath, that was incredibly disorderly to continue to shout out. Senator Cash, a second supplementary question?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Why has Minister Burke given himself up to 32 clauses in the government's new IR bill which give him extraordinarily broad ministerial powers to change the laws with the stroke of a pen, including powers to rope in even more businesses if he doesn't like a decision that has been made by the Fair Work Commission to exclude those businesses?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It wouldn't be a Thursday afternoon in the Senate without a new scare campaign from Senator Cash, would it? 'Extraordinary stroke of a pen! Dark Ages!' Seriously, this nonsense that you pull out every time we want to do something about fixing wages is laughable. In answer to your previous question, take a look at section 306AAB—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator McGrath! Senator Cash! Senator McKenzie?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On a point of order, the minister needs to direct his comments to Senator Cash through the chair.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator McKenzie, I will remind the minister of that, but I would particularly like to remind the chamber that you all need to be respectful and orderly, and not shout out.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash has a track record of coming into this chamber or going into the newsrooms and making stuff up when it comes to industrial relations reforms. We've had the dark ages, we were going to have supermarket shelves that were empty, we were going to be closing down the economy—

Opposition senators in terjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Cash, again—those constant interjections are disrespectful and they're disorderly. I would ask you to listen in respectful silence.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Next week I predict Senator Cash will be in here saying this will end the weekend—oh, that's right! You've already done that one! After that it will end the backyard barbecue—oh, that's right! You've already done that one! Every scare campaign you have ever made up about industrial relations changes is wrong because wages are getting moving again under the Albanese government and we want that to continue.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator McKenzie, we are moving on.