Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Senator Watt. I refer the minister to two statements the department put out on Tuesday night saying they did not actually rely on the website of a modern-day spiritual healer when calculating the cost of a bargaining consultant. Is it just an amazing coincidence that the figure of $175 an hour that his department uses in the report is the figure mentioned on the modern-day spiritual healer's website which the department provides as a reference in the regulatory impact statement? Will the minister take responsibility for this appalling error?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Duniam.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Senators, I don't want to repeat of the shouting that we had yesterday. The question has been asked. I'm going to call the minister in a moment, and I expect him to be heard in respectful silence.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Duniam, for the question. Well, another day, and we have the opposition continuing to clutch at straws to find any reason possible to stop workers in this country from getting a pay rise. They will do anything to stop talking about workers getting a pay rise. They will do anything to stop small businesses and medium-sized businesses being able to participate in a system that exists under their current legislation to deliver pay rises for their workers, a more simple industrial relations system and higher productivity for small businesses.

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order, President, on relevance: the question was pretty clear, around the source of the information and whether the minister would take responsibility, not the—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Duniam. I will draw the minister to the question.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I say, this is a continuation of what we saw yesterday from the opposition, trying to find any possible reason, whether it be websites or people—consultants. What this is actually about is one of the false claims that the opposition has been making this week, which is their claim that it will cost small businesses $14,000 to participate in multi-employer bargaining, and medium-sized employers will pay even more. Now, you'll be surprised to hear that that's actually wrong.

The way the laws are structured allows for small businesses to have access to the cooperative workplaces stream, so that, if a small business wants to go and engage a consultant, whoever that might be, to assist them with their results, then that's a matter for them. But what I think you will find is that most small businesses are members of chambers of commerce, are members of industry associations, who would actually go and do the negotiations on their behalf. And then a small business would have the option of choosing to be part of that or not. Of course, if their workers would like to be part of that, then the majority of those workers have to go through a process to support that option. They also have to go to the Fair Work Commission to get approval to do so. So this idea—

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

A point of order on relevance, again, Madam President: this business round—everything other than the answer we asked for.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Duniam. I will draw the minister back to the question, and I would ask those on my left to listen—

in silence, thank you, Senator McKenzie!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

So, as I say, what the opposition is saying is just plain wrong, and I'll keep telling you why. (Time expired)

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm waiting. You have a senator on his feet.

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's unbelievable. But ACCI, in terms of chambers, released information yesterday showing the cost of a bargaining consultant is actually closer to $438, rather than $175, the figure it uses in its data, making costs for small businesses higher than $20,000. Is the minister going to ask his department to fix the regulatory impact statement, or does the minister stand by the calculation of the modern-day spiritual healer he references in his report?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm not going to call the minister until there's silence. And those interjections are disorderly, Senator Ayres.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I understand that this has given the opposition a lot of amusement this week, but we don't think it's amusing that, for 10 years, workers have had to get by without a pay rise.

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Assistant Minister to the Leader of the Opposition) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's in your RIS!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We don't think it's an amusing situation—

The:

Senator Watt, please resume your seat. Senator McGrath, I have asked for silence. The minute the minister got to his feet you were shouting louder than the minister who has a microphone. I ask again for there to be silence so that we can all hear the minister's answer. Minister Watt.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I haven't seen that report from ACCI, but, if they are putting that sort of information out then they are wrong and they are misleading their members—

James McGrath (Queensland, Liberal National Party, Shadow Assistant Minister to the Leader of the Opposition) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

They're wrong! Murray knows best.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

They're wrong!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Because what ACCI and the opposition should know is that small businesses will have access to the cooperative workplaces—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Watt, resume your seat. I asked at the start of question time for there not to be a repeat of the disorder that was in the chamber yesterday during question time and immediately we have the disorder back again. I'm going to ask for about the fourth time for members on my left in particular to listen to the answers in silence. Minister Watt.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

ACCI should know, because—

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, they should!

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

they've been involved in these discussions, that small businesses will have access to the cooperative workplaces stream.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Cash, you immediately started shouting again after I had asked for silence. I ask for silence and some respect for the rulings of the chair. Minister Watt.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In fact, ACCI is one of the organisations that will have every ability under this legislation to prepare a template agreement for all small businesses to opt into under the cooperative workplaces stream. So are ACCI telling us that they oppose a wage rise—shock, horror; ACCI have always supported pay rises, haven't they? Are they also saying that they're not prepared to play their role as an employer group to design a template agreement that small businesses can sign up to? That would be a very interesting offer to their members.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Duniam, a supplementary question?

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Slamming ACCI—a great way to go. Will the minister put out a new RIS—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On a point of order, Senator Wong?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That's debate; that's not the question. Can you please call them to the question?

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Duniam, I called you for your second supplementary.

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I refer to the minister's characterisation in the negative of ACCI in his last answer. Will the government put out a new RIS fixing their calculations—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Duniam, Senator Wong is on her feet.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I again have a point of order. That is commentary. If he wants to give a speech, he can do so later.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There are a plethora of people, but I'm going to take your point of order, Senator Birmingham.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Sorry, Senator Birmingham, but not until your side is quiet.

Opposition senators interjecting—

You have your leader on his feet. Senator Birmingham.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order from the Leader of the Government in the Senate, it would make a mockery of the concept of supplementary questions if a senator were not able to commence a supplementary question by referring directly to what the minister just said in the preceding answer. So Senator Wong's point of order has no basis.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Birmingham, please resume your seat.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's nothing to do with the question.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

His answer had nothing to do with the question.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong and Senator Birmingham! I note that it has been the custom in this place for senators from all over the parliament to make comments leading into their first and second supplementary questions. If we're going to call it to order, it's an order for everyone. Senator Duniam, your second supplementary question?

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you for your ruling, President. Having made that point twice, will the government put out a new RIS fixing their calculations and referencing errors with the spiritual healer, or does the minister contend the RIS is right?

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'll tell you what's right about the RIS. I'd like to read from the RIS. It says:

The significant benefits of being covered by an enterprise agreement and the costs that may be associated with remaining covered by a Modern Award outweigh the additional cost for businesses to engage with the new multi-enterprise bargaining streams.

You forgot to read that bit of the RIS, didn't you? You forgot to read the bit that says that businesses—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Watt, please resume your seat.

Jonathon Duniam (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Environment, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Did a spiritual healer write this?

Bridget McKenzie (Victoria, National Party, Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is embarrassing, Murray.

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Minister Watt, please continue.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Duniam also forgot to read the bit of the RIS that says:

Businesses are often covered by multiple Modern Awards which can be complicated and difficult to interpret. An enterprise agreement enables an employer to have one industrial instrument which applies to a business which simplifies their workplace relations arrangements.

Wouldn't it be a terrible thing to have an industrial relations system which provides a simple method for small businesses to participate in an agreement that is—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Sue Lines (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Once again, order. This is question time. If you wish to make a contribution, there are plenty of other times to make the contribution throughout the week. The question has been asked. I've called the minister to answer it and I expect him to be heard in silence.

Murray Watt (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, President. It is interesting that the opposition chooses to cherrypick from the RIS but leaves out all the bits that talk about the benefits to business, the benefits to workers, the benefits to the economy, of pursuing this. And we make no apologies for doing things to give workers a pay rise and small business— (Time expired)