Kristina Keneally (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Cormann. Nadia Sievewright was a young nursing student when Centrelink hit her with debts totalling $25,000. She was told by Centrelink that, if she wanted to contest them, she would need to pay lawyers to fight in court and that, if she lost, she might go to jail. Doctors suspect that the stress of interacting with Centrelink aggravated her autoimmune condition, causing her to be hospitalised on multiple occasions. Nadia even received calls from Centrelink when she was eight months pregnant. The government has conceded that the robodebt scheme developed by Mr Morrison was unlawful. Does the government now accept that it was also wrong to illegally hound vulnerable Australians like Nadia to the point of desperation?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

'If people fail to come to an arrangement to settle their debts, the government has a responsibility to taxpayers to recover that money'—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left. I'd like to hear the minister's answer.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I hear the outrage about that quote. That is a quote not from anyone on this side of the chamber but from Tanya Plibersek on 29 June 2011. Tanya Plibersek said, 'If people fail to come to an arrangement to settle their debts, the government has a'—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order, Senator Cormann. Senator Keneally, on a point of order?

Kristina Keneally (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Direct relevance, Mr President. I asked about the illegal robodebt scheme designed by Mr Morrison. He is quoting something that predates Mr Morrison's illegal scheme. I draw him back to the point of the question and ask him to direct his answer to that.

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm happy to rule on the point of order. Senator Keneally, the question had a substantial preamble. The minister was 20 seconds in. I could barely hear his answer, although I did hear the quote that you're objecting to. I'm listening carefully, but I do believe that is directly relevant to the substance of the question asked. I ask Senator Cormann to continue.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you very much, Mr President. Further:

The automation of this process will free up resources and result in more people being referred to the tax garnishee process, retrieving more outstanding debt on behalf of taxpayers.

That is Bill Shorten.

It is important that the Government explores different means of debt recovery to ensure that those who have received more money than they are entitled to repay their debt.

That was Chris Bowen. The government has acknowledged—

Opposition senators interjecting—

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The government has acknowledged that the income averaging that was used was not an appropriate way to recover those debts, and that is why the government will commence refunding eligible debts from July 2020 and will continue through the 2020-21 financial year.

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, on a point of order?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, my point of order is direct relevance. The minister was asked whether or not the government now accepts it was wrong—

Senator Rennick interjecting—

Sorry, Senator Rennick. Would you like me to give you leave to speak?

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Interjections are always disorderly.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order! I don't think anyone in the Senate has a halo when it comes to interjections. Everyone should cease. Senator Wong.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order! There are interjections coming from all around the chamber. As I said, no-one has a halo. I urge those who are well practised to cease.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's always such an interesting experience when he does. Mr President, Nadia Sievewright's case has been raised with the opposition. We asked whether it was wrong to illegally hound vulnerable Australians, like Nadia, to the point of desperation. I understand there are politics at play. The minister has had his fun quoting Labor people about a different scheme, but I ask him to be directly relevant to that issue. She deserves an answer.

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I say on the point of order that I'm not in a position at this point in this chair to make a ruling on whether something was part of a particular program. The question asked the minister for information. In my view, the information he was responding to that with is directly relevant and does directly address the question. There is an opportunity to debate this matter after question time. Senators can avail themselves of that. Senator Cormann.

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you very much, Mr President. As Ms Plibersek and Mr Bowen said, the government has a responsibility to recover debts where people have been overpaid and, as Mr Shorten said, the automation of this process will free up resources. I also should say that, of course, the government recognises that the recovery of debt has to be done in a way that is lawful and that is why the government has made the decisions it has since announced.

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Keneally, a supplementary question?

Kristina Keneally (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Cancer-suffering grandfather Raymond Murphy had to sell his home and move into a shed just to afford medical treatment. He said that the debt collectors 'ripped him to shreds' over a $2,300 robodebt while he was in hospital. Does the minister think this was fair?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is always preferable for people to come to an arrangement to settle their debts. That is absolutely preferable. In the context of people not engaging with Services Australia, that raises administrative issues which were recognised when Labor was in government. There were errors made in relation to the automation of the income compliance program. These will be addressed, and the government has made relevant decisions to address them.

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Keneally, a final supplementary question?

Kristina Keneally (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It's disappointing that the minister has addressed neither the situation of Nadia nor the situation of Raymond. They are real people who have really suffered. So what is Mr Morrison's response to the human cost of the system he designed and implemented as social services minister in 2015?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is nothing wrong with the government seeking to recover outstanding debts where there have been overpayments. That is something that has happened under governments of both political persuasions, and, indeed, the previous Labor government was considering the automation of this process. Mr Shorten was advocating in favour of the automation of this process. That is a matter of public record. These arrangements have to be put in place in a way that is consistent with applicable laws, and that is what we will ensure will happen.

Scott Ryan (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cormann?

Mathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I ask that the further question be placed on the Notice Paper.