Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Finance) | Link to this | Hansard source

I move:

That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Families and Social Services (Senator Ruston) to questions without notice asked by Senators Brown and Gallagher today relating to the National Disability Insurance Scheme.

What a question time we just had. We had the Leader of the Government in the Senate nursing his ministers through question time, providing them with suggested responses to questions from Labor senators. We asked some very straightforward questions to both Senator Ruston and Senator Colbeck. In terms of the questions to Senator Ruston, it was to try to elicit information about the waiting list, the demand for services that people in the community are experiencing or the wait for those services through the enrolment or lack of enrolment through the NDIS system. The reason we're asking these questions is that, for any person who's elected in this parliament, right across the country, if they have a range of top constituent issues that come through their door, there are complaints about the NDIS.

Of course, Labor built the NDIS. We support the NDIS. We believe it is the right framework to provide services to people with a disability. It will empower people with a disability to make decisions about their own care requirements and will give independence to them and their families that hasn't always been available before. We support the extra investment in the provision of it. But we don't support a government that's botching the rollout, that leaves people under-resourced through their packages or that makes it very difficult to get packages approved, with people enduring long waits for either equipment or services. That is the issue we have. We know from the budget paper that there have been significant underspends in this program. Those significant underspends are propping up the government's bottom line. There is no doubt about it. You can't have underspends totalling $6 billion over two fiscal years—and we'll wait for the update tomorrow—and pretend that that is not helping you when you're trying to deliver a budget surplus. Absolutely it is. It is a big program with big underspends and a lot of unhappiness in the community about it.

Those are the questions we're asking, and what did we get? We got non-answers. I have to say this is becoming a feature of this government's attitude to question time. The response from us is that we will have to take points of order because our questions aren't being answered. We are experiencing non-answer time. It looks like every minister either isn't across their brief or has been given specific instructions not to answer any question they may get asked. Questions may, if we're lucky, get taken on notice. I've rarely seen one of those come back through. But these details that we asked about today should be known to ministers and those representing other ministers in this place.

What is the waiting list? How long have people waited for care?

What is the current wait time for the NDIS package? How many people with disability and their families are going without vital services because of the government's delayed rollout? Can the minister confirm that people are receiving just 50 per cent of the approved value of their first NDIS plan? All are quite simple questions that deserve an answer, and they deserve an answer because people are coming to our offices and complaining about the difficulty they have in accessing NDIS services or in getting the care that they need.

We can go through a number of examples where people have reached out to Labor offices to talk about the difficulty they've had in getting a response from the NDIA. We're not going to blame this all on the NDIA. They have been unfairly restricted by the staffing cap that this government has imposed on them. They can't employ the staff they need to deliver the services that people are demanding. That's one way to control demand. We heard from the minister that it's a demand driven system. It's actually hard to deliver that when you don't have the people in the jobs to approve the packages and support the people to transition to the NDIS. That is a conscious decision of this government. They are the ones who could overturn that and ensure that the NDIA is properly resourced with the skills and capabilities that are required for the long term instead of relying on contractors to come in and deal with a crisis. That would allow more people to get through and for those people to have the support they need through their own packages and to make their decisions—delivering the vision that was always intended for the NDIS. Unfortunately, this government has taken a different approach. It's constraining demand and it is, at the same time, propping up its budget. We will see tomorrow just how much of their final budget outcome is propped up off the back of people with disability not receiving care.

Paul Scarr (Queensland, Liberal Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

I'm quite happy to rise in this place and defend the government's performance with respect to the NDIS rollout. I, personally, representing the good people of Queensland, find it an outstanding performer, and I think the facts actually support that argument. Can I say at the outset what an outstanding job the Minister for the NDIS, the member for Fadden, from my home state of Queensland, is doing. I've heard a number of members in the lower house congratulating the minister with respect to the proactive nature of his office. When concerns are raised, as they inevitably will be with a massive rollout of this nature, they are attended to, and that's the way it should be.

This notion that in some way the government is artificially trying to prevent services getting through to those who need them in order to protect the budget bottom line is quite absurd. There is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion. I am sure that every single senator sitting in this place wants that service provided to the people who need it as quickly and as efficiently as possible, and that is exactly what the government is doing.

Instead of just bland assertions, let's actually look at some of the facts in relation to the matter. The NDIS has undergone significant growth, from approximately 30,000 participants at the end of trials on 30 June 2016 to almost 300,000 participants as at 30 June 2019—an increase of 270,000. Significantly, 100,000 of those participants, 100,000 Australians in need, are receiving support and services for the very first time. So from my perspective, as a senator for the great state of Queensland, this rollout is occurring effectively and efficiently and it's delivering services to those people in need.

Since the commencement of the NDIS, the active provider market has also grown from around 3,500 service providers, as at 30 June 2016, to more than 21,000, as at 30 June 2019—an increase of 600 per cent. Again, look at the facts. The facts support the government's case that this system, one of the biggest social reforms in this country's history, with its bipartisan support, is being rolled out effectively and efficiently and delivering services to those in need. We know, the government knows, that the number of participants entering the NDIS is lower than originally estimated. It's a demand driven system, and Minister Ruston tried to explain that in the face of constant interjection from our friends opposite.

As at 30 June 2019, there were 298,816 participants who had received disability support from the NDIS, representing 72 per cent of the original bilateral estimates. This progress has been consistent throughout the NDIS trial and transition phase. In large part, this reflects the shift from block funded services, where data on individuals receiving services was not robust. Despite the best efforts of the NDIA, as well as Commonwealth and state and territory governments, there are some people who may be eligible for the NDIS who remain difficult to contact and engage with. And it's incumbent on every senator in this place and our friends in the House of Representatives to do our best to make sure the people in our community get the services they need as quickly and as efficiently as possible. And the government is doing exactly that.

The number of existing Commonwealth and state and territory clients transitioning to the NDIS has been lower than originally estimated. We accept that. But, the fact of the matter is, the scheme is being rolled out effectively and efficiently, and it is delivering services to those in need. For those examples where people are falling between the cracks, each and every person representing their state or their local seat in this place needs to bring those facts and circumstances to the attention of the relevant minister and the relevant agencies and do their best to advocate on behalf of those people to make sure they get the benefit and services they deserve as Australians.

Delivering this groundbreaking reform to improve outcomes for Australians with a significant and permanent disability will inevitably involve challenges. The important thing is to address issues quickly and efficiently as they arise to ensure the sustainable management of the scheme into the future. (Time expired)

Carol Brown (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Assistant Minister for Infrastructure and Regional Tourism) | Link to this | Hansard source

That contribution from Senator Scarr was disappointing and, quite frankly, just plain sad, because I'm sure Senator Scarr actually believes exactly what he said in his contribution. He talked about facts and he talked about the scheme being rolled out efficiently and effectively. But let's look at some of the facts. Senator Gallagher, in her contribution when she talked about question time being a non-answer, is spot on. That's exactly what's happened here today. When I asked Senator Ruston three questions, she didn't answer any of them. She didn't answer any one. She took the first one on notice, she took the second one on notice and for the third one she said, 'We don't comment on individual cases.' That's what she said, so she didn't answer. And then we've got Senator Scarr who wants to talk about the facts and about this program. Well, 77,000 people are actually missing out on the NDIS, so that's your efficient and effective rollout. That's what that means to those people that are out there, waiting and trying to get the services that they need.

These are the facts: we've had about six ministers in six years. That's a problem. Nobody stays in this portfolio area for very long, and they haven't got a handle on what they need to be doing. We have no CEO; the CEO resigned and we still have no CEO. We've had $1.6 billion taken out of the NDIS, and that is money that should stay in the NDIS for services and supports for participants. That's where that money should stay. It shouldn't go back to prop up your budget. That is what is happening. You put a staffing cap on the NDIS. Everyone knows—the Productivity Commission knows—that that needs to go. There are not enough people to roll this out efficiently and effectively, because you have hamstrung the NDIA by putting in a staffing cap. You put a review in and you didn't listen to the recommendations. There was a recommendation that the staffing cap needed to be reviewed.

We need to come in here and highlight the cases where people are missing out. We've had cases where a participant who suffered from progressive spastic paraplegia was told he was not disabled enough. If that doesn't tell you that there's an issue around training and that you need to put some more effort into it, then I don't know what's going to. But there's one thing that we can be sure of in terms of what is happening with the government's rollout of the NDIS: it is not happening effectively or efficiently. I'm sure Senator Scarr's contribution was a contribution he believed in. But the facts do not bear out his contribution at all. We're looking at 77,000 people missing out because of delays, because of the issues around plans—and that doesn't even go to the fact that, on average, people are using only 50 per cent of their first plan. Why do you think that is? It is because the services are not there—that is why. And whose responsibility is that? It's the NDIA and this government. This government is responsible for the rollout. It's responsible to ensure that it is working efficiently and effectively. And it is not. (Time expired)

Gerard Rennick (Queensland, Liberal Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

The federal coalition government takes the rollout of the NDIS scheme very seriously. The facts and figures will support this. The NDIS continues to grow at a rapid pace. Progress is being made to enable every Australian with a significant and permanent disability to access the reasonable and necessary support they need to participate fully in their communities. As at 30 June 2019, 21,500 service providers had been registered. The NDIS Quality and Safeguards Commission, launched in July 2018, continues to manage provider registrations in New South Wales and South Australia. It commenced operations in all other states on 1 July this year, except Western Australia, where operations will commence in July next year. As at 30 June this year, the NDIS was operating fully in all regions of each state and territory, except four regions in Western Australia. They will join the NDIS in July 2019, and Christmas and Cocos islands will join the NDIS in July next year.

Importantly, the NDIS is supporting people from existing state, territory and Commonwealth systems, and people who have never received any Commonwealth support previously. Currently 99,000 people are receiving supports for the first time. As at 30 June this year, 298,816 people with disabilities, including children in the ECEI program, have been supported by the NDIS. This represents an eight per cent increase in the number of participants over the last quarter. An additional 27,853 participants, excluding children in the ECEI program, received approved plans this quarter.

The government is committed to continuing to work with the NDIA and state and territory governments to ensure the success of the NDIS. The insurance approach allows pressures on the NDIS to be identified early and allows NDIA management to put in place strategies to respond to these pressures. In the fourth quarter of June 2018, 27,853 participants had their plans approved. A further 5,312 children were referred through the NDIS gateway. Of those who were surveyed in the fourth quarter, 94 per cent reported their planner listened to them, 94 per cent considered that they had enough time to tell their story and 95 per cent thought their meeting planning had gone well.

The NDIS achieved 93 per cent of its operational target across 2018-19, meaning 108,478 of the 116,000 actionable records were processed. Between 2013 and 2019, 298,000 participants had approved plans, and 5,312 children were being supported through the NDIS ECEI gateway. This scheme has been within budget each financial year since it started, including the 2018-19 financial year.

I can provide more detail on the plan approval performance for the period up to June 2019, nationally and for each state and territory. New South Wales had a total transition of 95,000 people, taking it up to 104,000. Victoria had a transition of 73,000; Queensland, 51,000; WA, 6,000—that's yet to commence ramp-up; South Australia, 21,000; Tasmania, almost 6,000; ACT, 3,000; and the Northern Territory, 3,000.

The NDIA is committed to building positive outcomes for participants and their families and carers. The agency uses the NDIS Outcomes Framework questionnaires as one of the key tools to assess the medium- and long-term benefits of the scheme. To assess the longitudinal impact of the NDIS, participants who entered the scheme in 2016-17 were asked, 'Has the NDIS helped?' after one and two years in the scheme, allowing the NDIA to gain a better understanding of the longer term impact of the scheme. During the June quarter, participants who entered the scheme in 2016-17, who have now been in the scheme for two years, were also asked this question. Survey results from this new group of participants have built on the results of the previous quarters, supporting the trend that outcomes— (Time expired)

Catryna Bilyk (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

What a disappointing answer the Minister representing the Minister for the NDIS gave today in question time. She was asked three questions first up by Senator Brown. She took two questions on notice, and she made one 'we don't comment'. Then, when asked by Senator Gallagher about the total underspend on the NDIS in the fiscal years 2017-18, 2018-19 and 2019-20, interestingly enough the minister did not deny that there was an underspend. But what she did was say, 'Well, I'll bring the budget books in'–a sort of condescending answer that, to be honest, I didn't expect from Senator Ruston. But she did not deny at all that there was an underspend, and that tells us a lot.

Responsibility for the management of the NDIS has been with that side of the chamber, as a third-term government, for a very long time now. I think it was Senator Brown who said there have already been six different ministers in the last six years. You can't get someone to really commit to it on your side, I presume. We've now got Stuart Robert as the minister now, who is just failing so abysmally in the management of this important scheme.

This scheme is there to meet the needs of some of the most vulnerable people in Australian society. And what do you guys do? You stand up and read out some facts. You make it sound good, but the reality is that you are not making the scheme work. The scheme is not working.

Gerard Rennick (Queensland, Liberal Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, it is.

Catryna Bilyk (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

It is not working, Senator Rennick. You've ripped billions of dollars out of the NDIS. You've failed to address the exodus by the executive of the National Disability Insurance Agency. You have now been without a CEO there since April—over a hundred days. You haven't even bothered to replace the CEO there. That's just a disgrace.

But what you are doing, and what your side seems particularly intent on doing, is propping up the budget. And how are you doing that? You're doing that by underspending on the NDIS, while people living with a disability are missing out. They're missing out on care and support that is so important to their everyday living. Your government could take much more action on making sure that people get to live with dignity. And what do you do? You go along and cap the staffing levels. What does that do? Let's think about it. You cap the staffing levels, people go to their specialist and their doctors, they get told what their needs are, they get support for it, and they go along, but there are no staff there to deal with the issues. People are on waiting lists that are months long even to get their plans looked at. It's a disgrace.

I'll tell you what: for somebody with a person in their family who lives with a disability every day, this is exceptionally close to my heart. You would not believe how close to my heart this is. And when I hear stories and have constituents come to me and tell me that they've been denied something by the NDIS that will make their life just that little bit easier, and they're denied it even though their GP, their medical specialist and their carers have asked for it, I think you guys should hang your heads in shame. It is an absolute disgrace. And I have seen that so many times you would not believe it.

Senator Scarr said, 'People should go and talk to their members and senators.' Well, you know what? The system should work better than that. People should not have to—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) | Link to this | Hansard source

They do!

Catryna Bilyk (Tasmania, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

They do, Senator Wong—absolutely. They come to us all the time. But they should not have to. The system should be working so that people can get their needs met so that they can live with dignity. It's pretty easy for you guys, sitting there in your little ivory towers. Do you have anyone in your family living with a disability? Do you have anyone in your family who is a paraplegic or a quadriplegic? Because I tell you what: if you did, I think you would be looking at this whole thing a little bit differently. You wouldn't be standing up and reading out pages of gumpf when the minister representing the minister in this place cannot tell us and will not even say that there is no underspend. She did not say that; let's be very clear— (Time expired)

Question agreed to.