Senate debates

Tuesday, 10 September 2019

Questions without Notice

Women's Economic Security

2:14 pm

Photo of Jenny McAllisterJenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary) Share this | | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Women, Senator Payne. Yesterday in question time the Treasurer said: 'The gender pay gap has closed.' Is the Treasurer correct?

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

I thank Senator McAllister for her question. I think anyone with a basic appreciation of the trajectory of the gender pay gap understands—and I'll explain this for those opposite—that the gender pay gap, whilst still too wide, is absolutely heading in the right direction. The latest figures of the gender pay gap show that it has fallen to 14 per cent, which is a record low. Indeed, it's fallen by 3.2 percentage points since November of 2013.

It was only last year that, for the first time, the government produced a Women's Economic Security Statement, of which we were very proud, led by my former colleague the then Minister for Women, the Hon. Kelly O'Dwyer. That statement contained a range of initiatives to further close the gender pay gap by boosting women's earning potential. It provided $8.6 million in additional funding to the Workplace Gender Equality Agency to make workplace gender reporting easier.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Order! Senator McAllister on a point of order?

Photo of Jenny McAllisterJenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary) Share this | | Hansard source

My point of order is on relevance. I was asking whether or not the minister considers that the Treasurer's remarks yesterday were correct, and she has not answered that question.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

You reminded the minister of that part of the question. With respect, I cannot instruct a minister how to answer a question as long as the minister is being directly relevant. In my view, discussing the issues of the gender pay gap, which you referenced in your question and which the minister is discussing in some detail, is directly relevant. But you've reminded the minister of the part of the question that you wish highlighted.

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

Thank you very much, Mr President, and I want to reinforce the statements I've made about the Women's Economic Security Statement, because what the statement contained—as I advised the chamber, but those opposite are apparently disinterested—was a range of initiatives to further close the gender pay gap by boosting women's earning potential.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Order! Senator Wong on a point of order?

Photo of Penny WongPenny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | | Hansard source

The point of order is direct relevance. We're not disinterested in women's issues. We had a Women's Budget Statement, which you stole. We are interested in you being relevant to the question. Could the minister respond to the question, please.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

As I said, Senator Wong, I think I cannot instruct a minister how to answer a question. In this case, it was a very tightly worded question. I am listening very carefully to the minister, and the minister has, as far as I've heard, for 1½ minutes spoken about the very issue raised in the question, that being the gender pay gap. I cannot instruct a minister to provide an answer that a question asker would prefer. I have to keep them directly relevant. In my view, the minister is being directly relevant.

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

Thank you very much, Mr President. I know those opposite don't want to hear about the successes that the government has had in ensuring that the trajectory of the gender pay gap is in a downward direction. Let me reiterate that it has fallen by 3.2 percentage points since November 2013. That means that under this government it has fallen by 3.2 percentage points.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Order! Senator Wong on a point of order?

Photo of Penny WongPenny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | | Hansard source

Seven seconds. I wonder if the minister could answer the question as to whether the Treasurer was correct when he said, 'The gender pay gap has closed.'

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Senator Payne has completed her answer. Senator McAllister, a supplementary question?

2:18 pm

Photo of Jenny McAllisterJenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary) Share this | | Hansard source

Senator Payne, how much less do Australian women earn on average per week than men?

Photo of Mathias CormannMathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | | Hansard source

They both earn more than they ever did before.

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

They do indeed; the finance minister's quite right. They earn $1,100 more now than they did before thanks to the initiatives of this government, which were fought tooth and nail by those opposite. Indeed, since the coalition came to office, increases in the minimum wage have never dropped below inflation. When Labor was last in office, those on the minimum wage were hit by real wage cuts in three out of six years. The real wage cuts under those opposite—

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Order! Senator Payne, please resume your seat. Senator McAllister, can I hear the point of order first?

Photo of Jenny McAllisterJenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary) Share this | | Hansard source

My point of order is direct relevance. It's a tightly worded question that goes to how much less Australian women earn on average per week than men.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

On the point of order, this is a very tightly worded question that essentially seeks a factual answer. I will ask the minister, who has been given half a minute to address broader issues, to turn to the specific nature of the question.

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

I was actually turning to the specific nature of the question, because, of course, the minimum wage reflects payments across all—

Photo of Penny WongPenny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | | Hansard source

Mr President, a point of order.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Senator Wong, I need the minister to be able to finish a sentence before I can make a ruling on direct relevance.

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

It must have been a very bad caucus meeting this morning; you're very grumpy.

Photo of Penny WongPenny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | | Hansard source

It was a very good one, actually. Mr President, the minister is actually being utterly disrespectful to the warning you just gave her, and you should call her to order.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

I wouldn't characterise my—

Photo of Mathias CormannMathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | | Hansard source

Mr President?

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Senator Cormann, on the point of order?

Photo of Mathias CormannMathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | | Hansard source

Senator Wong should apologise for that reflection on Senator Payne just now. Senator Payne is answering in a way that is directly relevant and courteous—as she always does—not only to Senator Wong but also to the Senate. I would ask that you require Senator Wong to withdraw that imputation on a senator in this chamber.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

I didn't hear an imputation. I will say to Senator Wong: I would appreciate it if you didn't characterise my rulings with terms like 'warning'. I would not characterise what I just said to Senator Payne as a warning. However, I will ask ministers, when they are asked for factual answers—

Senator Cormann interjecting

Sorry, Senator Cormann, you're asking for something to be withdrawn?

Photo of Mathias CormannMathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | | Hansard source

Senator Wong knows precisely the imputation that she has made in relation to Senator Payne, and I would ask you to consider the Hansardhopefully the interjection was picked up—and come back to the chamber, because there has now been a barrage of disorderly interjecting on a continuous basis over the last 20 minutes. Quite frankly, I think what is starting to become unbecoming is the level of disorderly interjections coming from the other side.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

I will say we—yes, Senator Wong?

Photo of Penny WongPenny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. If the President wishes to look at the HansardI'll always abide by the ruling you make, Mr President. So I'm happy for you to do so and I'll respond accordingly. I would make the point, for the benefit of the Leader of the Government in the Senate and perhaps for the chamber, that in large part the reason that you are seeing interjections is that senators on this side do not believe that ministers are answering questions, and I think that is objectively demonstrable. Question time is for a government to be held to account. The opposition is entitled to ask questions. I think that the Australian public and the Westminster system expect answers. Ministers are not answering questions, and you are accordingly seeing a response.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

I'll take Senator Cormann before I make some rulings and observations.

Photo of Mathias CormannMathias Cormann (WA, Liberal Party, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Share this | | Hansard source

Firstly, rulings in relation to what is consistent with standing orders in terms of ministerial answers are a matter for the President, not for the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate—with the greatest of respect to my friend and colleague Senator Wong. Secondly, when there are clearly partisan political questions being asked, the Labor Party should not be surprised when they invite a somewhat more political answer than would otherwise be the case.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

I think it's got to the point where we're 30-all between you and Senator Cormann, Senator Wong. I would just like to make some—

Photo of Penny WongPenny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | | Hansard source

Mr President?

Photo of Penny WongPenny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | | Hansard source

I appreciate your patience. The last comment that was made by the Leader of the Government in the Senate was that questions invited political answers. This, as you pointed out, is an entirely factual question about an amount, which the minister could have googled in the time that we've been arguing about the point of order.

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

So we have made some observations both generally and specifically. I will start generally. Senator Wong, complaints from the opposition regarding governments and question time are not unique to either side of the chamber. While it has been noisy in the last two days, since we resumed from the winter break, I haven't detected a noticeable difference in question time, other than the amount of noise. When I come to Senator Cormann's point about the claimed observation he wanted withdrawn, I didn't hear it. I'll look at Hansard and I'll approach senators. If there is something recorded that Senator Cormann may have heard—I'll see what I can find out.

On other questions today, there have been more-broadly-worded introductions to questions. This has, in my view, allowed ministers to be directly relevant to the question and to provide some of the comments that you've highlighted, Senator Wong, which you don't think are appropriate but I think are directly relevant. The way I have interpreted and recorded this particular question is that it was seeking a fact from a minister. To be directly relevant to a question like that, one must be speaking about the fact. One does have the right, as a minister, to provide some context around that, which is why answers are not just 10 seconds long; they can be a minute long. So I'll ask the minister and remind the minister of the specific fact sought by Senator McAllister in asking the question. Senator Payne.

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

Thank you very much, Mr President, and, if I had been allowed to finish my response, I was going to observe that the gender pay gap can be influenced by a number of factors, and currently all industries continue to have a gender pay gap in favour of men. What WGEA assesses, in terms of full-time average weekly earnings, is that FTAWE for women currently is $1,484.50 and for men is $1,726.30. (Time expired)

Photo of Scott RyanScott Ryan (President) Share this | | Hansard source

Senator McAllister, a final supplementary question?

2:24 pm

Photo of Jenny McAllisterJenny McAllister (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Cabinet Secretary) Share this | | Hansard source

Data from the Workplace Gender Equality Agency reveals that the full-time total remuneration gap is 21.3 per cent, meaning that men working full time earn nearly $25,717 a year more than a woman working full time. Does the minister share the Treasurer's view that women earning $25,000 less than men reflects a pay gap that has closed?

2:25 pm

Photo of Marise PayneMarise Payne (NSW, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) Share this | | Hansard source

I know that all members of this government are focused on ensuring that the gender pay gap is closing and is heading in the trajectory that I've described before, which is a 3.2 per cent closing since we were elected in 2013. That is in marked contrast to the efforts of those opposite. And, importantly, what we do in working with WGEA and working within government initiatives is to introduce new opportunities for women to engage in the workforce and new opportunities for women to advance in the workforce in a real and serious way, unlike those opposite.