Kimberley Kitching (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, as one Victorian senator to another, may I offer my congratulations to you. I too have a question for Senator Cash, but in her ill-held portfolio of employment. On 25 October the minister told the Senate Education and Employment Committee at least five times that her office was not responsible for leaking the raids on the Australian Workers Union offices by the Registered Organisations Commission to the media. Given the minister's staff had the opportunity to correct her alleged ignorance of the facts during the morning tea break, the lunch break, the afternoon tea break, at her meeting with the Prime Minister or at any other stage through the day, does the minister really expect the Senate to believe she first became aware that her office tipped off the media during the dinner break?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, it was remiss of me in my previous answer not to congratulate you on your election to the esteemed office of President of the Australian Senate. Senator Kitching, it's a little ironic that you're asking me questions given that a royal commission and the Fair Work Commission have both found that you broke the law.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, on a point of order?

Opposition senators interjecting—

On my left! Your leader is on her feet and has the call.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The point of order is on direct relevance. This minister has misled this chamber on five separate occasions and now wishes to engage in a personal attack on another senator in order to distract attention from her own failings. The principle of ministerial responsibility matters in our democracy, and she ought to answer the question.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, you raise the question of direct relevance. We are less than 20 seconds into the answer. I'm listening to the minister's answer, and I call the minister.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In answer to Senator Kitching's question, I answered the questions that were put to me based on the knowledge I had at the time. At the earliest opportunity, I came to the Senate estimates committee and I corrected the record—unlike you, Senator Kitching; you have never corrected the record. What did the Fair Work Commission find in relation to you, Senator Kitching? This what is the Fair Work Commission found:

On the totality of the evidence I find that Ms Kitching performed these tests.

In other words, she sat someone else's right-of-entry test. The commission went on:

Ms Kitching's denials of knowledge and involvement—

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cameron on a point of order?

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, on relevance. The minister was asked a direct question and the minister has gone nowhere near that question. She should at least be drawn to the question. She has not gone near it.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brandis, on the point of order.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I think this bears upon the point of order: while Senator Cash, who is sitting only about two feet away from me, was trying to answer the question, I couldn't hear the answer because of the incessant stream of interjections from Senator Wong.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

She was probably lying. She was probably misleading.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong should withdraw that.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, I ask you to withdraw that.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

She was probably misleading.

Government senators: Withdraw!

I withdraw.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, as the leader of the second party in this chamber, should show enough respect both to you, Mr President, and to the chamber to enable ministers to answer questions without an incessant stream of interjections across the table.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Farrell, if you have something unique to add to the point of order, I'll hear it.

Don Farrell (SA, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for the Centenary of ANZAC) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do, Mr President. I'm sitting further away from Senator Cash than Senator Brandis is, and I can hear her answers. She was very clearly not answering the question. The question was a very simple one: does the minister really expect the Senate to believe she first became aware that her office tipped off the media during the dinner break?

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There has been a lot of noise at this end of the chamber. I did hear Senator Cash address that particular part of the question with respect to correcting evidence at the hearing. I think that in that sense the minister was directly relevant to the question that was asked. I might also say that when there are colourful and personal interjections, of the volume that they are, across the chamber, a minister is also entitled to address them in an answer.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I was saying, in relation to the findings against Senator Kitching, the Fair Work Commission itself said:

On the totality of the evidence I find that Ms Kitching performed these tests. Ms Kitching's denials of knowledge and involvement—

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, on a point of order?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The point of order is direct relevance. It's clearly not relevant in any way whatsoever to the question of this minister misleading the chamber.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Cash has actually addressed the question of Senator Kitching. I heard her talk about Senator Cash coming into the committee and correcting evidence. I heard that earlier. So her answer, as I understand—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On that ruling, if I may, if it is going to be your practice that a minister can be directly relevant by mentioning an aspect of the question in the first sentence and then going off on another tangent to attack another senator, then we will have to look to change the standing orders.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Brandis?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, in a rather threatening way, is reflecting upon your ruling, Mr President. She ought to withdraw the reflection.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank senators for their contribution. My understanding of the practice in this chamber has been that ministers are allowed to address all or parts of a preamble or a question and expand on their answers with other material. However, Senator Wong, if I'm incorrect in the application of that in this case, I will again come back to the chamber and make a correction from the chair and do so quite humbly. I will happily look at the exact questions and the words that have been recorded in Hansard, through the noise, after question time today, and come back to the chamber. Senator Cameron?

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On the point of order, can I draw your attention to standing order 193, which does talk about imputations of improper motives and personal reflections. That was clearly a personal reflection. This minister should actually answer the questions. She has not answered the question.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have said now on a number of occasions that I heard the senator talk about correcting evidence at an estimates hearing, which was referred to in the question. I believe those statements qualify as being directly relevant. I will review the question and the answer. I will also review past practice and ensure that any correction I come back to the chamber with, or what I just said, is entirely consistent with past practice of people in this chair. Senator Cash.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I was stating, I am referring to findings of both the Fair Work Commission and a royal commission. The Fair Work Commission said:

Ms Kitching's denials of knowledge and involvement cannot be accepted.

I will not take lectures on honesty and propriety from Senator Kitching.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Kitching, is there a supplementary question?

Kimberley Kitching (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Were any other members of the minister's staff aware that her office was responsible for tipping off the media before she claims she was told? If so, who was aware, and when did they first become aware?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have canvassed these questions in considerable detail at a number of estimates hearings, but I will also say that the question itself now relates to an ongoing inquiry by the Australian Federal Police into alleged unauthorised disclosure of information concerning the execution of search warrants. On the basis that it is the subject of an ongoing investigation by the Australian Federal Police, it would be inappropriate for me to comment any further.

Scott Ryan (President, Special Minister of State) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Kitching, a final supplementary question?

Kimberley Kitching (Victoria, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Were any members of the Prime Minister's staff, or any other ministers' staff, aware that her office was responsible for tipping off the media before she claims she was told? If so, who was aware and when did they first become aware?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, I have canvassed these questions and provided answers to them. But, again, I refer to my previous answer: this is now the subject of an AFP investigation and, given that it is an ongoing investigation, it would be inappropriate for me to comment any further.