Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Brandis. The damning report of the Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman, Kate Carnell, into the big banks found that they have been unacceptable and possibly unconscionable in their dealings with small businesses. Given that Ms Carnell, like thousands of Australians, is 'fed up' with the banks, when will the government admit that the banks will not change their ways, and establish a royal commission?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We want practical outcomes. We want practical outcomes which will address the very kinds of problems that not only Ms Carnell but also many other commentators and several inquiries have pointed to. Senator Gallagher, you seem to have, if I may say so, a very, very, very insouciant faith in royal commissions to change culture.

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We do not think that having a royal commission that will no doubt go on for years—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

On my left!

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

and which will no doubt cost hundreds of millions of dollars in lawyers' fees is the way to change the culture. Rather, what the Turnbull government announced last year is that it would bring the banks, through their CEOs, on a regular basis right before the House of Representatives Standing Committee on Economics and put them on the mat in that public forum regularly. That, in our view, is a much more effective way in which to change the culture to which you have pointed.

Senator Gallagher, you might like to kick this issue into the long grass and rely on a royal commission to come back to us in perhaps five years time or so, having wasted hundreds of millions of dollars in enriching lawyers and enriching expert witnesses, but we want a practical answer that will have an immediate and measurable effect and will be able to deal with particular cases. That is why we have opted for the course that we have taken—

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

To protect the banks!

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

not as you interject, Senator Gallagher, to protect the banks but to put them in front of the parliament—to put them in front of opposition and government senators alike—to give an account of themselves right now.

Doug Cameron (NSW, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Like being flogged by a wet lettuce!

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Gallagher, a supplementary question.

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In her report, the small business ombudsman said that the big four banks believe that they can:

… continue with business as usual and they don't have to change.

Minister, why is the Turnbull government protecting the banks and refusing to establish a royal commission?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have told you, Senator: because we think that there are more effective ways and more immediate ways to achieve the outcome that you seek. Your colleague Senator Doug Cameron, who is not a shy person by any manner of means, interjects that 'they will be flogging them with a wet lettuce'. Well, if it is a wet lettuce, Senator Cameron, you are one of the wet lettuces because we will be putting them in front of the entire parliament and we have begun to do so.

Senator Cameron, you may have no confidence in your capacity to pin witnesses down in parliamentary committee hearings. You may have no confidence in the capacity of your Labor colleagues both here and in the other place to put witnesses on the mat, but I have lots of confidence in the capacity of people such as Senator Ian Macdonald or Senator Linda Reynolds, for example, to pin witnesses down, to put them on the mat and to expose them if something needs to be exposed and to do it in real time. (Time expired)

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Gallagher, a final supplementary question.

Katy Gallagher (ACT, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Given the findings of this report and the important role that small businesses play in the economy by contributing more than $343 billion each year, Minister, why won't you stand up for small business and establish a royal commission?

Sam Dastyari (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Hear, hear! Good question!

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left!

Honourable senators interjecting—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Why won't you, Senator Gallagher—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

And my right!

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

if you believe what you are saying? I know that not believing what you say is the endemic culture of the Labor Party under Mr Bill Shorten.

Senator Wong interjecting—

Senator Gallagher, if you really believe this then why will you not support the government's decision—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Macdonald, a point of order?

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I hate to interrupt the leader on what was a very good answer but, again, I can barely hear him because the Leader of the Opposition, Senator Penny Wong, has continued to shout at the leader consistently through this question and most other questions. Can you please bring her to order, treat her like other senators and ensure that she does not interject continuously.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr president, on the point of order, I do concede I did respond to Senator Brandis's suggestion that the entire Labor Party are liars. Perhaps what I ought to have done is taken a point of order.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Wong.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Order! For all senators, interjections are disorderly. It has been rather noisy on both sides from time to time, so I will ask all senators to listen to answers in silence.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I, in fact, do not use unparliamentarily language, as you know, Mr President. I merely pointed out that saying one thing and doing another is part of the custom of the Labor Party led by Mr Bill Shorten. Senator Gallagher, if you believe this, why will you not support the government's decision, which has already been put into effect, of bringing the CEOs of the banks before the relevant parliamentary inquiry, not in an endless process that will take years to resolve but immediately on a regular basis every year? (Time expired)