Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Brandis. I refer to photos published today showing bundles of cash that Indonesian police say were paid to people smugglers by Australian officials to turn back boats. A recorded interview with the captain of the asylum seeker vessel confirming the payment has also been reported. Will the Abbott government confirm or deny these reports?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The captain of the people smuggler vessel would be a very reliable witness, Senator O'Neill—a very reliable witness indeed! As a matter of fact, Senator O'Neill, if you want to know, there is only one political party under whose watch people smugglers grew rich in Indonesia, and it was under your watch, because under your watch 50,000 people journeyed to Australia, not including those who lost their lives—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. I know that Senator Brandis is auditioning, but the question was about a serious issue—

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Which standing order?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

relevance, thank you, Senator Macdonald—about an important issue of photographs which have been published in a major Australian newspaper and an interview which has also been published. He should respond to that issue. That is the question which has been asked.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Wong. I will remind the minister of the question. He has one minute and 31 seconds in which to answer.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

You know, Senator Wong, if I were you I would not be talking about photographs too readily, because we saw some pictures of the ABC television last night, Senator Wong, of you and those behind you, like Senator Stephen Conroy over there, which were—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on direct relevance. Mr President, you have already reminded the minister of the question and again he has gone nowhere near the question in his response.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Moore. I will remind the minister of the question. The minister has one minute and 17 seconds in which to answer.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. Coming to your question, Senator O'Neill, over six years 50,000 illegal entrants, auspiced by people smugglers, who we know received an average fee of US$10,000—that is, US$500 million into the pockets of people smugglers over six years on your watch, on your party's watch, as a result of—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock.

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. The minister is now repeating the answer exactly, to the word almost, that you have already drawn to his attention is not answering the question. This is now the third attempt from this side of the chamber to ask him to comply with your ruling. So could you please call him to order on a point of relevance and ask him to answer the question?

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Conroy. I will remind the minister again of the question and remind the minister he has 46 seconds in which to answer the question.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. I was being asked a question about payments to people smugglers and I was making the point that the only payments that we have seen to people smugglers are the payments that were made as a result of the policies of the previous government—an average, by the way—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock.

Kim Carr (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister Assisting the Leader for Science) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order going to relevance. The minister was asked directly: will he confirm or deny the reports that were published in the paper this morning? That is the question. He has defied your ruling now on three occasions. I would ask you to draw him to actually answer the question.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Carr. Minister, you have now had three quarters of the time allocated for the question. Minister, I cannot direct you how to answer the question, but I can ask you to be directly relevant to the question.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Carr, Kim Jong Un was kinder to his uncle than you were to Kevin Rudd! Coming directly to the question, there is only one political party that put money into the pockets of people smugglers—$500 million in six years—and that is the Australian Labor Party.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise again on a point of relevance. I understand that in question time—and I hope the crossbenchers recognise this—there are times—

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Is this a point of order or are you—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, the point of order is relevance, Senator Macdonald.

Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Macdonald, I determine points of order.

Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting—

Order, Senator Macdonald! Senator Wong, you have the call.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

We understand that ministers will speak on tangential matters in the lead-up to answering a question. This minister, serially, has defied your ruling. He has not once even attempted to pretend to answer the question. He might sit there smirking and thinking that this abuse of Senate question time is appropriate, but you, as President, should put a stop to it.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will say that, in the last few seconds of the minister's answer, I believe that he was getting to the point, and he did indicate that there was only one side of politics that had paid people smugglers, which was directly relevant to the question. I will allow the minister to continue.

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have nothing to add.

Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer to reports that, following payment, asylum seeker vessels were redirected towards Indonesian waters, resulting in one vessel crashing on a reef at Landu Island, leaving some passengers stranded. Will the Abbott government confirm or deny these reports?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator O'Neill, when it comes to security matters, we simply do not comment. We simply do not comment. That was the position taken by your leader, Mr Shorten, yesterday. Mr Shorten said yesterday that no serious leader of an Australian political party would comment on security matters. You have asked me to comment on a security matter. I direct you to what your leader, Mr Shorten, said. Of course, Mr Shorten said many things. Mr Shorten once said, 'Julia Gillard has my full support'. That was in 2013. He once said, 'Kevin Rudd has my full support'. That was in 2010. But it was yesterday that Mr Shorten said, 'No serious political leader would comment on security matters,' and yet that is what you have asked me to do.

Stephen Conroy (Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I raise a point of order as to relevance. I am not sure what any of that has to do with the question. You do not actually need this side of the chamber to draw his attention to it when it is so blatant.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister, in answering the question, straight up said, 'We do not comment on those security matters'. I believe that he answered the question.

Deborah O'Neill (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Does the minister stand by the Prime Minister's statement that media outlets are promoting discord by reporting on this issue?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I stand by everything that the Prime Minister says.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Minister Brandis. He suggested that the captain of the vessel, Yohanis Humiang, was an unreliable witness. Does he have evidence as to why his testimony is wrong? If so, can he produce it? Can he provide an account of what actually happened, whether bribes were paid, when they were paid and to whom they were paid?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, with respect, that is an astonishing question. Do I have evidence that the captain of a people smuggler vessel is an unreliable witness? Yes, I do. Do you know what that evidence is? It is because the man is the captain of a people smuggler vessel. The man is a person engaged in earning his living from the misery of other human beings and accepting a very large sum of money from it.

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

That is my evidence. As Senator Macdonald interjected before, perhaps you should stick to medicine. Because if you do not think that that is pretty compelling evidence that that particular man's assertions and allegations should at least be treated with scepticism then, Senator Di Natale, you must come from another planet.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. Given that Senator Brandis—

Honourable Senators:

Honourable senators interjecting—

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I cannot hear myself speak at the moment.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Just a moment, Senator Di Natale. On both sides, order!

Honourable senators interjecting—

Senator Heffernan, do you have a point of order?

Bill Heffernan (NSW, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

And a plea: I notice in a pig sty that, when you chuck the feed out, the pigs shut up. Can someone bring some feed in?

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no point of order. That did not assist, Senator Heffernan. Can we come to order.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Firstly, let me apologise to the people at home who might be watching this. Given that the minister—

Honourable senators interjecting—

Are we going to restart the clock?

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Yes, we will restart the clock.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Given that the minister has refused to deny the allegations of bribery, can the minister tell the Senate from which departmental budget this bribe money was drawn? And can he confirm that it does not come from the foreign aid budget?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Di Natale, honestly and truly—a question based entirely on a false premise. Because, as I was trying to explain to Senator O'Neill before, there is only one occasion when people smugglers have been enriched, and that is during the period of the Labor government, when they earned $500 million off the back of the misery of fellow human beings as a result of policies you supported.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. There was no preamble. It was a very straightforward question: where did the money come from—which departmental budget? Was it foreign aid? That is all. Nothing else. I draw the minister's attention to the question.

Honourable senators interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! There is no point of order, Senator Di Natale. The minister indicated up front that he believed it was a false premise of your question in the first place. Minister, do you wish to add to your answer?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do, Mr President. Now $500 million over six years, Senator Di Natale, is about $83 million a year. Do you know what the GDP of Indonesia was in 2013? $868.3 billion. Because of policies that you supported, this industry was worth 10 per cent of Indonesia's GDP. That is the money.

Richard Di Natale (Victoria, Australian Greens) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a further supplementary question: I would like to ask the minister to confirm whether the Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection will do as the Senate requested yesterday, and that is to table all the documents relating to this tawdry affair? And I ask whether they will be shared with the Senate and the Australian people, as confirmation of his statement yesterday that everything that was done was within the law?

George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, it is certainly not the practice of any political party in this country, or at least any governing party, on this side of the chamber or the other, to bring into the Senate and to table documents relating to the national security of Australia. You should know that, as the leader of a political party, Senator Di Natale. But notwithstanding that, I can advise you of some facts you seem to have forgotten: that during the period of the Labor government, as a result of policies you supported, more than 1,100 men, women and children drowned at sea—as a direct result of policies that you supported. But since the Abbott government was elected, not one life has been lost. As a result of the policies you supported, 50,000 people made a mortal passage to Australia, and since the Abbott government has been elected, the boats have been stopped. The boats have been stopped, the smugglers are out of business, and the lives are no longer being lost.(Time expired)