Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Women, Senator Cash. I refer to NATSEM modelling of university fees and HECS debts, if the University of Western Australia's fees become the benchmark. NATSEM found that the female teacher could take more than 26 years to pay off her HECS debt and end up paying more than $140,000. Won't the prospect of such debts deter talented young women from becoming teachers?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Moore for her question. I have to ask, in relation to the NATSEM modelling, was that the modelling that the Labor Party paid for itself or is this different modelling? Because if it was modelling that the Labor Party themselves paid for, I may have to say—a little bit like every time Senator Wong promised us a surplus and failed to deliver—that I may not necessarily agree with that modelling. The answer to your question is no.

In relation to this government's changes to higher education, let me assure you of one thing: what we are doing is more than your side ever did for people in this country who actually want to undertake a university education and, in particular, for women in this country. What we are doing is going to ensure that more women are able to access higher education than currently can. In terms of what we are doing, we are doing more—

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, my point of order is on direct relevance to my question, which was about the time proposed to take to pay off student debt should the University of Western Australia increase their benchmark for studies. The question is there. I would just like to have—

Government senators interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister has not responded to my question.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I did hear the minister say quite clearly that the answer to your question was no, partway through her answer. The minister has the right to continue her answer.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I said this to Senator Moore the other day when I responded to a question: the mere fact that you do not like my answer does not mean that it is wrong. My answer to your question is that I do not agree with it. In relation to the debt, the changes that we are bringing in are going to be beneficial not only to women in this country but to all Australians who want to undertake higher education. This is because no student under our government will have to pay one dollar upfront. They will only commence repaying their debt when they earn in excess of $50,000. This is all about ensuring that we have equity in our system.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I assure the minister that I do not make personal judgements about her answers. I also refer again to modelling that has been available on increased debt. Why is the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Women supporting higher fees and higher interest rates that could see a female nurse take more than 24 years to pay off a debt of almost $100,000? Also, has the minister spoken with the female students about these issues?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Moore referred to increased debt. Well, Senator Moore, would you like to know about increased debt? Because that is actually what your party—

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. I refer again to direct relevance. The minister was not moving towards my question, and I do not care to hear about another 'increased debt' issue.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator cash, I remind you of the two questions that were asked by Senator Moore.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Again, it is on increased debt. Senator Moore referred to increased debt in her question, and I am directly responding to the increased debt part. That is a former government that was responsible for increased debt. This is a government that is taking steps to address the fact that, as Senator Cormann has pointed out in his answers today—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. The question was about student debt. While I understand the minister wants to make some political points, it is a very important question about the effect of higher fees and higher interest on women, given that women earn less over their lifetime than men. I would have thought the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Women would want to answer that question.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister was asked two distinct things. Firstly, there was reference made to modelling, and the minister was asked why she was supporting increased debt in that context. Secondly, she was asked whether she has spoken to people concerning this matter. The minister has been answering the question, but I refer the minister—

Senator Wong interjecting—

The minister has been answering the question—

Senator Wong interjecting—

Order! In relation—

Government senators interjecting—

Order on my right! You are not assisting. She is answering the question in relation to increased debt, which was a part of the question—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Student debt, Mr President.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order!

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I rise on a point of order. Is it appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate to directly shout at you when you are making a ruling?

Opposition senators interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order on my left!

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, there are some standards in this chamber, but you would not notice it from listening to this lot today—and I apologise to our esteemed guest.

Senator Cameron interjecting—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Cameron, maybe I should ask Speaker Bercow to deal with you! Senator Macdonald, thank you for your point of order.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, could the honourable Speaker take Senator Cameron back with him?

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no point of order!

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Only I do not dislike the United Kingdom that much! Mr President, can I continue with my serious point of order? You would think the leader of the opposition would set a standard or an example; but she is actually arguing with you. I would suggest that you remove her from the chamber.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Senator Macdonald, for your point of order, but I did not regard the leader of the opposition as shouting at me. I am about to rule on the point of order, which is that the minister has been relevant. She has 26 seconds to answer the question, and I do remind her of the two points to the question.

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will say, though, that in their submission to the Senate inquiry on higher education reform the Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation said that a nursing degree under a deregulated system would range from $24,000 to $34,000. Whilst this may or may not be right, what it certainly does is dispel the lies and the misinformation that have been spread by the other side that a degree would cost $100,000. (Time expired)

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. I refer to the Minister for Education's statement that women will not be charged higher fees because 'they will not be able to earn the high incomes that dentists and lawyers will earn'. Doesn't NATSEM's research show that the women who undertake teaching and nursing degrees will be among the hardest hit, precisely because they do not earn high wages?

Michaelia Cash (WA, Liberal Party, Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I again go to the fact: is this the research that was paid for by the Labor Party? Because, if it was, I might say that they may have paid for research to support the questions that they have put to us in this place. We on this side are all about fiscal responsibility. The policies that we are bringing in will ensure that more women are able to undertake higher education degrees, which, in turn, means that more women will be able to go into those occupations which earn higher incomes. That is what we on this side of the chamber will deliver, unlike you on your side of the chamber.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Employment) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I ask that further questions be placed on the Notice Paper.