Sue Lines (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Employment, Senator Abetz. I refer to the minister's decision to revoke the Commonwealth Cleaning Services Guidelines. I also refer to advice from the minister's own department:

There is likely to be a reduction in cleaning costs for government agencies by removing the requirements for pay rates and workplace relations practices that are outside the mainstream framework.

Was the minister aware of this advice before he misled the Senate yesterday when he said that cuts to cleaners' wages are absolutely not likely to occur?

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Lines, you made an allegation about the minister. I think you are borderline with that, Senator Lines. If the minister wishes to take the question, I call the Leader of the Government in the Senate, Minister Abetz.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Employment) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I have said on a number of occasions in this place, we as a government believe that the wages that are set in the Australian workplace relations environment should not be determined by the government but by the Fair Work Commission in the absence of workers and employers being able to come together in an enterprise agreement. What the Labor Party have not been able to explain to the attendants, to the security guards and to the grounds maintenance staff is why they did not intervene in relation to their wages.

Don't those on that side believe that the Fair Work Commission provides a sufficient safety net and a sufficient level of wages for these workers? The real reason that the Australian Labor Party is so interested in this matter is that these so-called guidelines, designed allegedly to protect workers, were more designed to protect trade unions, because the guidelines required these things: employees had to be provided with information about joining a union by union officials. It was also a requirement that union delegates attend all staff inductions and scheduled employee meetings—

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Pause the clock.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Order on my left! You have your Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate waiting to be heard.

Claire Moore (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Women) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, again, my point of order is on direct relevance. The specific question, the only question in the question, was whether the minister was aware of the departmental advice about savings before he gave his answer yesterday.

Stephen Parry (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Moore, you are correct. That was the question, but there was also an allegation against the minister in that question, in the preamble. Minister, you are being directly relevant and you are responding to the allegations raised in the question. Minister, you have the call.

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Employment) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Thank you, Mr President. Can I then turn to the specific issue in the question and, as I answered yesterday, the only way an employee's wages can be reduced is if the workers and the employer agree in an enterprise agreement to do so or if the Fair Work Commission were to rule and make a decision accordingly. As I said yesterday, I doubt that either of those scenarios would occur. Is it a hypothetical? Yes. Will it occur? No. (Time expired)

Sue Lines (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer to the advice to the minister, and I quote:

The Business Services Contractors Association of Australia supports revoking the Guidelines. It considers that removing the Guidelines will assist cleaning contractors competing for Government work because companies will now be able to submit tenders based on award rates.

Is the BCA Association correct?

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Employment) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The reality is that, today, cleaning contractors can bid for quotes on government cleaning contracts on the basis of modern award rates. That was the position under your government and, as I understand it, the vast majority of government cleaning contracts actually allows for that, Senator Lines. So before you just regurgitate a question, served up to you by your old union, you should be doing a bit more research to ensure that you get your facts right because not only do you embarrass yourself but you embarrass the whole labour movement with these sorts of questions.

Sue Lines (WA, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. In the light of the minister's statements to the Senate yesterday that cuts to cleaners wages are 'absolutely not likely to occur' and, I quote, 'My money is on it not happening,' both of which are completely at odds with the advice of the minister's own department, how can cleaners trust the minister when he claims that wages will not be cut?

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Minister for Employment) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, as we speak, the guidelines which we speak about have been removed. Is there one cleaner in Australia today who is now being paid less because of the removal of the guidelines? The answer is no. And Senator Cameron's smile tells us that he knows the answer as well.