Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer
2:25 pm
My question is to the Minister for Finance and Deregulation, Senator Wong. Given that yesterday, when asked, the minister was not prepared to stand by her expenditure estimates in relation to illegal arrivals by boat in the government's budget released just last month, can the minister today confirm that the government will need to make a significant upward revision of its expenditure estimates in relation to those illegal arrivals by boat, just like it had to do for last year's budget?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Thank you to Senator Cormann for the question. It is the case that variations to budget estimates are made, and they occur across a range of programs. The senator has mentioned one. There are others, from memory, in higher education and in some areas of the FaHCSIA portfolio, where we had higher expenditure than expected and, in some cases, lower expenditure. The senator would know that it is a normal part of budgeting to update estimates as and when further information comes in. I think one of the suggestions or implications in the question is that somehow that is untoward. Every government updates its estimates at every budget update in line with information which is received by departments.
In relation to the IMA costs, or irregular maritime arrival costs, as the senator knows—and I would refer him to my answer yesterday—the government is being perfectly transparent about the assessment of these costs.
Eric Abetz Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
Oh, please! Your transparency is ludicrous.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
We for the first time—
Eric Abetz Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
Ludicrous!
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Senator Abetz, maybe you could wait until you know something about something before you say something, because the reality—
Honourable senators interjecting—
The reality is—
Eric Abetz Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
I am so hurt!
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
I am being good today, Mr President. This is me being good. See, I am smiling—so I am being good!
John Hogg President
Order! Senator Wong, Ignore the interjections.
Opposition senators interjecting—
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
No, I am being kind today. Senator Abetz, you may like to know that this is the first time, in my memory—and I could be wrong—that these methodologies have actually been published in the budget papers, and we did so because we thought it was important that we laid out the methodology for the assessment, and that is what we have done.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer
2:27 pm
Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. Given the minister has just conceded that the government will incur significant additional costs as a result of yet another blow-out in illegal boat arrivals, can the minister confirm by how much its expenditure estimates for illegal arrivals by boat will blow out—given that she relied on a prediction that illegal arrivals by boat would reduce from about 3,000 a month right now to about 1,000 a month in less than two weeks from now?
Senator Jacinta Collins interjecting—
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
2:28 pm
There are a lot of subclauses in that question, but I think the first point I would make—
Ian Macdonald Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia
The old senator couldn't manage at Copenhagen but she might be able to handle this.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
It is so tempting, when Senator Macdonald says things like that. But I am not going to give him the benefit—
John Hogg President
Order! Senator Wong, ignore the interjections—
Opposition senators interjecting—
Ignore the interjections and address the chair.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
I am trying, Mr President. I am trying.
Eric Abetz Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
You are very trying.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
The first point I would make is that I do not believe that the senator's articulation of what he believes I said is correct and I would like him to consider the Hansard. The second point I would make is to refer back to my first answer, which is that it is perfectly normal for governments to update any estimate, whether it is this or any other, and we have set out the methodology in the budget papers.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer
2:30 pm
Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. How could the government possibly ever rely on a 10-year average trend in illegal arrivals by boat for its expenditure estimates in the budget, when that period clearly covers the successful Howard government border protection policies which stopped the boats? Does the minister not realise that as a result of the actions of the former Prime Minister, Mr Rudd, the trend significantly changed and further accelerated and deteriorated under current Prime Minister Gillard?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
The lie that the opposition keeps peddling is that there is a slogan solution to this public policy problem. That is the lie they keep peddling, and it is a lie. It is deeply irresponsible. The continued assertion that they somehow have a magic solution ignores both the advice of the customs and navy personnel—
George Brandis Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General
Mr President, on a point of order of direct relevance: both the primary question and each of the two supplementary questions were directed to the methodology exposed in the budget papers. The second supplementary question from Senator Cormann directly challenged how that methodology could result in a downward reduction in the number of estimated boat arrivals at a time of an increasing upward trend. That was the substance of the question. It is not being addressed in this very, very general answer.
Jacinta Collins Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Parliamentary Secretary for School Education and Workplace Relations
Mr President, on the point of order: once again, Senator Brandis has not actually been listening to the questions that have been asked. You will be aware that I highlighted with respect to the first supplementary question that the minister was being verballed. Senator Cormann was putting his own interpretation on the answer that had been provided. It was quite different to the facts and he is encouraged to have a look at the Hansard there. He has asked for a broad political spray and that is what he is getting.
John Hogg President
Order! The minister has 36 seconds remaining. The minister, I believe, is addressing the question. The minister has 36 seconds. There is no point of order.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Thank you Mr President. The opposition might believe that the facts are not relevant. I understand that that is their position. But responsible parliamentarians know that the facts are relevant and the facts of this are that naval and customs personnel have advised about the dangers of your policy and Indonesia has said that they will not accept boats being turned back. All you are peddling is a lie and a slogan in the face of what is a difficult public policy question, about which you only want to play politics.