Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
2:25 pm
My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Wong. I refer the minister to the fact that Australia's gross debt currently stands at $272.8 billion, just $27 billion shy—
Government members interjecting—
John Hogg President
Order! Senator Joyce, you are entitled to be heard in silence.
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
just $27 billion shy of our $300 billion debt ceiling, which was increased to that amount last year. Given that the government has foreshadowed more deficit in tonight's budget and that the government continues to borrow in off-budget spending, including for the National Broadband Network and the Clean Energy Finance Corporation—
John Hogg President
Order! Order! Senator Joyce, I have called order. Wait a minute, Senator Brandis. Order!
George Brandis Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General
Mr President, on a point of order: throughout this question the minister to whom it is directed, Senator Conroy, has been braying across the chamber at the questioner. That is not in order and you ought to bring him to order.
John Hogg President
The question was directed to Senator Wong; it was not directed to Senator Conroy. I have already called to order those interjecting across the chamber, one of whom was Senator Conroy, but there were others.
Opposition members interjecting—
Order! The Senator is entitled to be heard in silence.
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
Thank you, Mr President, I can understand their sensitivity about the debt—
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
Will the government increase the debt limit for the fourth time in four years in tonight's budget? There is that debt limit and we are getting up there. We are almost about to go through it.
John Hogg President
That is out of order. Order! There have been two instances in the chamber—order!
Ian Macdonald Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia
You are not being balanced.
John Hogg President
If you wait and listen to what I have got to say—a bit of courtesy would be nice, indeed. That is the second instance today where people have held things up in this chamber. They know they are out of order. It is not proper to display that material. Order!
John Faulkner NSW, Australian Labor Party
Are you saying that he is unbalanced? Those are your words. Get up on your feet and say so.
John Hogg President
Order! On both sides. Senators down the back, shouting across the chamber does not assist during question time. Order! Both of you, it does not assist question time.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
2:29 pm
The first point I make is in reference to one of the points made in that very long tirade by the former shadow minister for finance.
Eric Abetz Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
This is coming from the former climate change minister.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Yes, I am the former climate change minister. I am now the Minister for Finance and Deregulation. Senator Joyce made a comment about the investment in the NBN. I do not know if he has looked at the policy of his friend Mr Turnbull, but Mr Turnbull is in fact promising to borrow almost as much for his plan—a plan for a network which would fall a long way short of providing an appropriate service, particularly to regional Australia.
Senator Joyce interjecting—
From his interjections, though, I am confused at the moment as to where the senator's allegiances lie. Is he here representing Queensland or New South Wales?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
I will also make a point about the discussion—if you could follow it—that Senator Joyce was engaging in on gross debt. It reminded me why people regard Senator Joyce as the No. 1 ticket holder of the Tea Party here in Australia.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
The reason the Tea Party in the United States, we know—
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
On a point of order, Mr President: we just want to know whether the finance minister is going to be responsible for extending our debt ceiling again tonight—for the fourth time in four years. Can she answer that?
John Hogg President
Order! You have taken a point of order just after I had asked the minister to address the question. You need to address the question, Minister.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Mr President, reference to the Tea Party is entirely relevant—because the logic of the gross debt question the senator has asked is precisely that of the Tea Party. I have to apologise to Senator Bernardi. He, of course, would like to be the No. 1 ticket holder for the Tea Party in Australia. That makes Senator Joyce the No. 2 ticket holder. The point is that the irresponsible Tea Party scaremongering we have seen in the United States congress is mirrored in the bloke who wants to be the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia. Even the Liberals are going pale at that prospect. Well may he stand up—their heads are down.
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
Mr President, I rise on a point of order. I thank the minister for her endorsement. But, apart from that, we just need to know: are you and your incompetent government going to extend the debt ceiling once more?
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
It is one of relevance. Are you extending the debt ceiling?
Stephen Conroy Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy
Re-asking the question is not a point of order.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
I will be very happy, in responding to Senator Joyce's next supplementary, to suggest which graphs he should look at—perhaps one which compares Australia with the rest of the world.
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
2:32 pm
Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer the minister to the fact that, this financial year, the government has borrowed $37 billion in the first 10 months. This borrowing is the second largest—you would think that borrowing that much would be the most, but it is not; it is the second most—amount borrowed under this Labor government in any one year. Can the minister explain why, if the economy is so strong—if they are doing so well—the government is continuing to borrow all this money?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
2:33 pm
I suggest the senator read the budget papers. He might then get some understanding of what the same people who advised Mr Costello are advising this government—about the hit on revenues as a result of the combination of a persistently high dollar and falling terms of trade and the squeeze that is putting on profits. But, if the senator wants to talk about debt, perhaps he should look at Australia's position compared to the rest of the world. Perhaps he can then look at what Mr Howard said—that our debt to GDP ratio, the amount of money we owe in relation to the strength of our economy, is still a lot better than that of most other countries. Perhaps he should talk to Mr Howard, who might explain to him the real position when it comes to Australia's public finances. (Time expired)
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
2:34 pm
Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Seeing how the minister wants to be asked a question on net debt, we will do so. I refer to chart 2 on page 3.22 of last year's budget, which showed that the government was predicting that it could repay our net debt by 2021. Given that the government has foreshadowed it will produce 10-year forecasts in the budget, will the budget forecast when net debt will be repaid and will the government promise it will still be repaid by 2021? There is a question on net debt. See if you can answer that one.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
The budget will lay out the pathway to both surplus and the repayment of net debt. I make this point: if the opposition are putting to the Australian people that they would—to use Senator Joyce's point—pay off debt earlier and return to surplus earlier, why do they not come in here and tell people what they will cut? What cuts will they make on top of the pension cuts they want to put in place, on top of the cuts to family tax benefit they want to put in place and on top of the increases to income tax paid by every low-income earner in Australia they want to put in place? If you are so serious about paying off debt, why do you not have the guts to come in here and tell Australians what you would cut? I bet you will not do that. In fact, I bet you do not even know.
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
Mr President, I listened to what the minister said and I concurred. I asked a question on net debt—
John Hogg President
Order! You are now debating it. Are you taking a point of order?
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party, Leader of The Nationals in the Senate
Yes, on relevance. Are they going to pay off the net debt by 2021?
John Hogg President
That is just repeating the question. I draw the minister's attention to the question.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
I again say: if the opposition believe they have a better position, they should come in here and tell the Australian people what it is.