Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Finance and Deregulation and Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, Senator Wong. What in dollar terms will be the impact of the Gillard Labor government's carbon tax on the budget balance over the forward estimates? Mr President, to assist the minister in being directly relevant in her answer, I highlight that I am only seeking from the minister a dollar figure.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I do not have the fiscal tables, which are in the EM, in front of me, but those fiscal tables, which were distributed in the revised explanatory memorandum, set out both the impact in terms of the fiscal balance and the underlying cash balance as well as the impact on revenue and receipts. If the senator is going to an issue which he raised with me previously, which is the impact on—

Eric Abetz (Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

No, he's not.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator, if you would let me respond. Do you want to ask the question, Senator Abetz?

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong, ignore interjections. They are completely disorderly. If people wish to debate the issue, the time is at the end of question time.

Ian Macdonald (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, a point of order on the grounds of relevance: Senator Birmingham clearly said all he wanted was a figure. The minister has said she has not got the figure, so she should be sat down; she cannot answer the question.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

There is no point of order. Senator Wong, you have one minute and 29 seconds remaining.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

As I said, the budget impact is set out in the fiscal tables associated with the EM. You will see in those, Senator, and I think we were discussing them in the chamber, both the impact on the UCB and the fiscal balance. I am happy to read them all out if you want. This is inclusive of government measures, because we of course have separately costed those which were the MPCCC measures. The fiscal impact, which is table 3, is 4,424 over the forwards—that is, 2,940, 1,061, 1,607 and 938 over the forward estimate period. The UCB impact—this is the MPCCC plus government measures—is 2,907, 558, 701 and then a positive 32, which is a total impact of 4,134. They are in table 3 and table 4 of the fiscal tables in the EM.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the minister for providing the answer and I ask the minister a supplementary question. In what year beyond the forward estimates will Labor's carbon tax package stop running at a deficit to the budget? Will it be 2015-16, or 2016-17, or will Australians have to wait even longer for Labor's new tax to stop adding to the size of Labor's budget deficit?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It is true there is an upfront cost to this plan. It is true also that, once it is up and running, the scheme is broadly budget neutral and is consistent with the government's fiscal strategy and fiscal reporting frameworks. The government does not intend—as was the case under Mr Costello—to release information beyond the forward estimates for policies, for the same reasons, I am sure, that Mr Sinodinos could explain to Senator Birmingham, should he desire.

Obviously, there will be a midyear budget update, which will update figures in the usual way, and then the budget next year in which a further year will be added to the forward estimates.

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on a point of order: the minister was asked very specifically when this tax package would cease to run at a budget deficit. That is the clear point of the question. If the minister is not going to answer it, that is fine; she can say so and sit down. Otherwise, she is clearly not being directly relevant to keep talking, having indicated that she simply will not say when this tax package will stop running and adding to the budget deficit.

John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The minister is answering the question and the minister has 12 seconds remaining to answer the question.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have directly responded to the question. I said we will not be releasing figures on this or any policy beyond the forward estimates, which is the same as Mr Costello's position. I have also said that, once it is up and running, this is a broadly budget neutral package consistent with the fiscal strategy. (Time expired)

Simon Birmingham (SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. If Labor is unable to bring in a new $9 billion a year tax without actually increasing the budget deficit over the forward estimates by more than $4 billion and is equally unable to say when in the future it may cease to run a deficit, why should Australians believe that Labor has any hope of recording a budget surplus anytime soon?

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Unlike the opposition, we have a fiscal strategy with fiscal rules and we have put forward our costings. Unlike the opposition, we did not have an $11 billion black hole in our election policies. Unlike the opposition, we do not have to cut $70 billion worth of services in health and education to make our policies add up.

Senator Cormann interjecting—

Under Mr Abbott, that economic team over there, of which Senator Cormann is a part, have never once got the costings right—never once. Whether it was in the election campaign, on the floods package or now on the super package they have never been able to show where they will get the money from. Australians will know that, as they always do, they will have to hack into health, education and other services to pay for their costing errors.