Senate debates
Thursday, 15 September 2011
Questions without Notice
Trade Unions
2:00 pm
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
My question is addressed to the Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations, Senator Evans. I refer the minister to the flood of allegations about financial irregularities involving certain trade unions, including the HSU and the AWU. Does the minister approve, as a matter of principle, of union officials engaging in lucrative related party transactions with their trade union?
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I did not quite get the import of the second part of the question but I think it went to some allegations that have obviously been made about some trade union matters.
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I do relate it particularly to a company called United Edge, which is a printing company, so that might help the minister in relation to the matter.
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Unfortunately, it does not help me because I am not aware of the company. But in terms of my portfolio responsibilities, I am responsible for Fair Work Australia and they have obligations under the act to inquire into matters that relate to trade unions and may impact on their registration or operations. Those are set out in the act. They pursue those obligations assiduously. They are matters that they inquire into independently of any sort of ministerial direction. I am not aware of what inquiries or investigations they have other than that obviously there is one in relation to the HSU, which the senator who asked the question is very well aware of and asked questions about at a series of estimates hearings. I am not in receipt of any particular information on or knowledge of the matters to which he alludes but I am not all that clear what he is referring to other than, obviously, the HSU matter, where there is an ongoing investigation. It has been indicated by Fair Work Australia that they expect to conclude that investigation in the second half of this year and, obviously, they will complete those inquiries and then recommend whatever action they think is appropriate in accordance with their obligations under the act.
2:02 pm
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. Minister, do you agree as a matter of principle that unions should pay the private legal costs of trade union officials in, for example, proceedings which do not relate to the affairs of the union? Can I remind you of your comments in this chamber on 17 August, in relation to a question regarding the use of union funds for escort services, when you said you did not think it was an appropriate use of union funds. So are you saying there are different forms of embezzlement in relation to your views on this matter?
George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
It is your side that should be embarrassed about this, senators.
2:03 pm
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I do not know whether that question is in order. It certainly does Senator Ronaldson no credit to make some allegation and then suggest that I was supporting some sort of behaviour when I had not even given an answer to the question. It does him no credit at all. I think Senator Birmingham gave you good advice as a general opposition yesterday when he made the observation that members of parliament should not set themselves up as court and jury. I do not have the direct quote, but it was a very well made observation, one with which I agree. It is the advice I myself gave to Senator Brandis the day before and it is advice I give to Senator Ronaldson.
George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Why should we turn a blind eye to breaches of the law?
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
We do not prosecute them in this chamber, senator.
Honourable senators interjecting—
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I rise on a point of order. It is hard to disagree with the comment made by Senator Cormann. My point of order is in relation to relevance. The minister has not in any way attempted to answer what was a very specific question in relation to—
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
It was a slur.
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
As for the minister, I am quite happy for him, while he is answering this question, to also say whether or not there are different types of embezzlement. It is a quite simple question.
Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
On the point of order, Mr President: it is inappropriate to now try to reword the question to bring it back within a sensible position, because what the question was was an utter slur and it should have been ruled out of order. I was not going to take a point of order on that because the minister can answer that part of the question which falls within his portfolio. But for the senator to then try to take a point of order to indicate that somehow it is a reasonable question that requires an answer and that it requires an answer that is directly relevant to the question is, I think, beyond the pale. There is no point of order.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I consider the minister is answering the question.
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, this is again an instance where the opposition just seek to slur people. If people have allegations of misbehaviour they ought to take them to the police or to other relevant authorities.
Senator Brandis interjecting—
No, Senator Brandis, it is not the role of the Senate to raise allegations and prosecute individuals. That has always been my view. I thought it would be yours. (Time expired)
2:06 pm
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. In view of the serious allegations against Mr Williamson, the former national president and current vice-president of the Labor Party, does the minister believe that Mr Williamson should stand down from his position within the HSU and also within the Labor Party?
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The minister can only answer that part that relates to his portfolio.
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I am sure none of it relates to my portfolio but I am happy to say to Senator Ronaldson, as I have consistently said, that any allegations of wrongdoing by any private citizen ought to be taken to the appropriate authorities, be they police or other appropriate authorities. If he has any information of wrongdoing then he ought to provide that to the police or other authorities without trying to put in the political fix beforehand.
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, I refer to your letter to senators dated 25—
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
No, this is a point of order.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
If you wish to take the point of order, take the point of order.
Government senators interjecting—
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
If the other presidents in the chamber will let me continue with my point of order, then I am happy to do so.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The point of order, Senator Ronaldson!
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, in your letter to senators dated 25 August, you said in the third dot point that:
Questions may be put to a minister … or to any matter of administration for which the minister is responsible in a personal or representative capacity.
I put to you that he, as a member of the Labor Party, is forced and required to answer a question in relation to Mr Williamson.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
That is a reflection on the chair. If I heard you correctly, I think you should withdraw. Are you reflecting on my position?
Senator Brandis interjecting—
Excuse me, I am talking to him!
George Brandis (Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I am talking to myself.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Well, you talk to yourself. Senator Ronaldson, are you talking about my position as the President of the Senate?
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
No, Mr President, I am quoting from your letter—
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I have quoted from your letter.
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr President, your letter indicates that questions can be asked of ministers on any matter of administration which the minister is responsible for in a personal or representative capacity.
Michael Ronaldson (Victoria, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Thank you. I was not reflecting on you at all. I am asking you to rule that this is a question on a matter for which the minister is responsible in a personal capacity and that he should be answering the question.
John Hogg (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I will rule that there is no point of order. I have asked the minister in addressing the second supplementary question to address that part of the question which goes to his portfolio. The minister has already outlined in the first 25 seconds of his answer his response to part of the question. If the minister has anything else to continue with, he may now do so.
Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Well, Mr President, on the basis of that I will have to answer questions on the poor form of the Fremantle Football Club, which will put me under enormous pressure. If the opposition have allegations to make, they ought to take them to the police or other authorities. I have no responsibility for these matters and have no personal knowledge of them. So clearly I am not able to assist in terms of reporting to the Senate. But I do think that all senators ought to think carefully about whether trying to prosecute allegations of criminal behaviour in the Senate is appropriate (Time expired)