Trish Crossin NT, Australian Labor Party
2:08 pm
My question is also to the Minister for Finance and Deregulation, Minister Senator Wong. Can the minister outline to the Senate the importance of maintaining fiscal integrity around major economic reforms such as tackling climate change?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Pricing carbon is a major economic reform and it is one that should be undertaken in an economically and fiscally responsible manner. Regrettably, that is not something that the opposition is doing, because what has been disclosed today is that the opposition’s so-called direct action policy will in fact cost nearly three times more than they told the people before the last election—in fact, $20 billion more than they costed at the last election. How embarrassing. This party pretends to be—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators interjecting—
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
How embarrassing: a party that claims to be fiscally responsible now is found out, now is caught out. A policy that was supposed to cost just over $10 billion will in fact cost $30 billion, another addition to your budget black hole. How embarrassing. One wonders what happened. Did Mr Robb not check the figures before the policy was released before the last election? Did they all—Senator Cormann and others—just rely on Mr Hunt to do it right? Well, he has led you up the garden path, and it is utterly embarrassing.
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators interjecting—
Ian Macdonald Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia
Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting—
John Hogg President
Senator Macdonald, I remind you that shouting is disorderly and continuous shouting is completely disorderly.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Mr President, I understand why they want to shout, because they do not want to hear this because it is embarrassing. You go to the last election and you say, ‘We’re going to meet the five per cent reduction by 2020.’ You say, ‘We’re going to cost it at $10-and-a-bit billion.’ You are now found out: $30 billion, a $20 billion black hole on top of your previous black holes, and this is the coalition that already started behind the eight ball. You already had a budget black hole; you are just adding to it. (Time expired)
Trish Crossin NT, Australian Labor Party
Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. Can the minister also outline to the Senate the implications for households of taking a different approach to tackling climate change?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Not only would the coalition’s so-called direct action plan increase the budget black hole; it will also leave the average Australian family some $720 worse off. That is because your plan takes from taxpayers and gives to polluters, with very little environmental gain. It is inefficient. That is $720 per year that the average Australian family will be worse off under your policy. So, next time you do one of your stunts and go along to a fruit stall, picking up apples and saying, ‘Oh, these will be more expensive,’ why don’t you tell the truth and say, ‘What we’re actually going to do is put our hands into the wallets and the purses—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators interjecting—
Ian Macdonald Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Northern and Remote Australia
Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting—
Chris Evans WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate
You got sacked from the shadow ministry for lying, Ian, so—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators interjecting—
Chris Evans WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate
I withdraw it unconditionally, Mr President.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Why wouldn’t the opposition be upfront and say, ‘Actually, our policy is to put our hands in the purses and the wallets of Australian families and hand it to polluting companies for questionable environmental gains’? That is your policy. (Time expired)
Trish Crossin NT, Australian Labor Party
Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Can the minister also outline to the Senate any support for the economic implications of taking an alternative approach to tackling climate change?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
The coalition have searched far and wide for an economist who will say this is a good idea, because what we know is this: the Treasury say it is not a good idea and the Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency say it is not a good idea. Where are the economists who say it is a good idea? Really, I think Mr Turnbull had it right. Mr Turnbull essentially said that there are no economists who can be found to support your policy. You are a party that pretends to be economically and fiscally responsible. You have put forward a policy with a bunch of black holes associated with it, which will cost three times more than you told the Australian people, $20 billion more—$720 from Australian families—and you have no economic basis, no economic credibility and no economic rigour to your policy whatsoever. And Mr Turnbull and other people in your party know it. (Time expired)
Cory Bernardi SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary Assisting the Leader of the Opposition
2:14 pm
My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, Senator Wong. Is the minister aware of a national survey that found that 83 per cent—
Doug Cameron NSW, Australian Labor Party
Is this a question about a burqa?
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Honourable Senators:
Honourable senators interjecting—
John Hogg President
Senator Bernardi, I will have to ask you to start again. I cannot hear the question.
Doug Cameron NSW, Australian Labor Party
Is this a question about a burqa?
Cory Bernardi SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary Assisting the Leader of the Opposition
There’s a sheep bleating.
John Hogg President
Senator Bernardi, I do not need your comments on this matter. I am endeavouring to give you what you are entitled to, and that is to be heard in silence. Senator Bernardi, start again.
Cory Bernardi SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary Assisting the Leader of the Opposition
My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, Senator Wong. Is the minister aware of a national survey that has found that 83 per cent of businesses intend to pass on the cost of Labor’s carbon tax through increased prices? Regardless of what price the minister and the government decide to put on carbon dioxide emissions, and regardless of how high the tax might be, can the minister admit that the evidence indicates that consumers and Australian families will inevitably be worse off?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Given some of the senator’s recent statements, there is very little that he says that I would give any weight to.
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Honourable Senators:
Honourable senators interjecting—
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
And there are those moderates on the other side who agree with me.
Simon Birmingham SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for the Murray Darling Basin
Play the ball, Penny, not the man.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
I am very happy to do that, Senator. It’s a pity some on your side don’t do that.
Opposition Senators:
Ooh!
John Hogg President
Senator Wong, resume your seat. When there is silence, we will proceed. Senator Wong.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
We have been upfront with the Australian people that pricing something that is—
George Brandis Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General
‘There will be no carbon tax.’ How upfront was that?
John Hogg President
I remind senators that interjections are disorderly and I need to hear the answer.
Mathias Cormann WA, Liberal Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer
You are misleading the Senate!
John Hogg President
That is another interjection that does not help the capacity of this chamber to deliver a reasonable question time to those who are listening.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
I am asked about price impacts. As the Prime Minister has said, once you price something that is currently free, which is polluting, there will be price impacts. The carbon price is paid by big polluters but, yes, we have acknowledged there will be price impacts, which is why, under the approach we will be taking, households will get assistance. The Prime Minister has been clear about that. For Senator Bernardi’s information, it is one of the key differences between the government’s approach as proposed and the opposition’s approach. The opposition takes from taxpayers and gives to polluters. The government levies a charge on pollution, recognises the price impacts and provides assistance to Australian households. No amount of the sort of scaremongering and inaccurate information that Senator Bernardi and others in the opposition put forward will make us resile from this basic fact: we want to price carbon. If you do not price carbon, you do not effectively tackle climate change. There will be price impacts. The government has said that, which is why we have also said that we would be looking, as the first priority, to assist households.
Cory Bernardi SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary Assisting the Leader of the Opposition
Mr President, I thank the minister for the answer and I ask a supplementary question. Given that the government intends to compensate Australians for the cost of this tax, isn’t this just a massive exercise in socialist wealth redistribution, driven by a Greens ideology through an inefficient bureaucracy at the cost of millions of dollars to Australian businesses?
Opposition Senator:
Bob’s nodding!
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Honourable Senators:
Honourable senators interjecting—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Honourable Senators:
Honourable senators interjecting—
John Hogg President
Everyone has enjoyed the moment. If we could have silence, then we will proceed with question time.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Minister Assisting the Minister for Tourism
The only socialists left in the place are the National Party!
Eric Abetz Tasmania, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
John Hogg President
Whilst this might be interesting across the chamber, I wish to draw to your attention that this is a matter for post question time. All that is being achieved here is chewing up the time that is allocated for question time, and I do not think that that is healthy. Senator Wong.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
The answer is no.
Stephen Conroy Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate
That’s all it deserved.
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Honourable Senators:
Honourable senators interjecting—
Cory Bernardi SA, Liberal Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary Assisting the Leader of the Opposition
Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. Given that this carbon tax will cost Australian households as well as businesses millions of dollars, why is the government introducing a tax that will destroy Australian jobs, hurt Australian families and fail to achieve its stated goal of emissions reduction?
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Finance and Deregulation
The government have made clear our view that climate change is a challenge that needs to be responded to. We believe that pricing carbon is an important economic reform. We believe that the most efficient way of doing that is to put in place a market mechanism to impose such a price and to ensure that there are proper measures to assist households as well as businesses through the transition. This is about meeting one of the challenges of today that is a challenge of tomorrow. It is about looking to the future. It is about trying to ensure in years to come that we look back and we say, ‘We did manage the transition to a clean-energy, low-pollution economy’—whereas people will look back on this Hansard, Senator Bernardi, and reflect on the somewhat outlandish conspiracy theories and the scaremongering, fearmongering, oppositionist approach that you always take to most issues and most certainly to this one.