Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Sherry. What proportion of Australia’s debt, as listed by the Australian Office of Financial Management as Commonwealth government securities outstanding, is finance from overseas sources?
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
I am not sure whether Senator Joyce would be aware but the government, on coming to office, inherited some $58 billion in debt, of which—
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators—Oh,come on!
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
It is true. I do not know why the opposition are so surprised. Perhaps I should explain to them—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators interjecting—
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
At the time of the Labor government taking office, the former Liberal government left us some $58 billion in debt.
George Brandis Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General
That is a lie!
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
That is a matter of fact.
John Hogg President
Order! Senator Brandis, you will need to withdraw that comment.
Order! Senator Brandis, you will need to withdraw that comment.
George Brandis Queensland, Liberal Party, Shadow Attorney-General
I withdraw.
John Hogg President
Senator Sherry, I draw your attention to the question. You have one minute 17 seconds remaining to answer the question.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
The Liberal opposition obviously do not want to hear the truth, because they believe their own propaganda—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Opposition Senators:
Opposition senators interjecting—
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
I notice the term ‘untruth’ is being bandied around. It is true. It is a matter of fact that there was $58 billion in debt when this government took office. If we go to—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Honourable Senators:
Honourable senators interjecting—
Julian McGauran Victoria, National Party
You are sending a shiver up the bond market.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
Senator McGauran makes the observation about the bond market. As a matter of fact—
John Hogg President
Senator Sherry, I draw your attention to the question—
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
I am trying to answer it.
John Hogg President
Forget about the interjections. The issue is to answer the question. Senator Joyce, is that your point of order?
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
Yes, that is my point of order.
John Hogg President
Senator Sherry, you have 35 seconds to address the question. Ignore the interjections. They are disorderly.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
Thank you, Mr President. I think it is important when answering this question on debt and bond issuance to point out the starting point. The Liberal-National party opposition may not like to know this but there was—
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
Mr President, I rise on a point of order. As you well know, there was a clear question asked, and that is: how much is financed from overseas sources? I draw your attention to standing order 194(1), which says, ‘A senator shall not digress from the subject matter’. It is a clear question. Senator Sherry, I asked: how much comes from overseas? If you cannot answer the question, just say so; or, if you are scared of answering the question, tell us that—but at least have an attempt at it.
Chris Evans WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Government in the Senate
Mr President, I rise on a point of order. I am not sure whether that was a point of order or a complete rave and rant. If it attempted to be a point of order, I suggest you suggest to Senator Joyce that it is totally inappropriate to rant and rave at the minister when allegedly making a point of order.
John Hogg President
There is no point of order. Senator Sherry, I draw your attention to the question that was asked by Senator Joyce. You have 18 seconds to address that.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
Thank you, Mr President. As I was saying—I have been so often interrupted, and you have pointed that out—the starting point for government debt was the $58 billion left to us by the former government, of which approximately—
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
Mr President, I rise on a point of order, which goes to relevance.
Stephen Conroy Victoria, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
The minister did not answer the question. He did not even get close to answering the question. So, in my supplementary, I ask the minister again—
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Honourable Senators:
Honourable senators interjecting—
John Hogg President
Order! Order on both sides. Senator Joyce, you have a supplementary question.
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
Mr President, I ask a supplementary question because the time has expired. I will ask the minister the question again and see if he has a chance of answering it: how much of Australia’s debt is financed from overseas sources? If you cannot answer it, please just be honest with the chamber.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
I think when Senator Joyce asks questions relating to foreign debt, he should make it clear what form of debt he is referring to. But I can indicate to the chamber—
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
Mr President, I rise on a point of order, which goes to relevance. I have clearly stated that. I have stated that it is the proportion of Australia’s debt as listed by the Australian Office of Financial Management as Commonwealth government securities.
John Hogg President
There is no point of order. I will continue to listen to the answer but I believe that Senator Sherry is seeking to address the question. Senator Sherry, I remind you of the question, and you are invited to continue your answer.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
On the question that Senator Joyce has now sought to clarify via his point of order, I can give him some quite detailed information about debt and foreign debt. Without all the interruptions and noise from the opposition, it would be much easier and smoother to get to that answer. With respect to debt, foreign debt, which is placed overseas, currently stands at some $678.3 billion, Senator Joyce. I might point out that when you were in government and when you were in opposition up until 1995-96—not to be specific because you were not here— (Time expired)
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
It seems amazing that, considering the debt as at today is $108.135 billion, he has now told us that $678 billion is foreign debt. He has got more foreign debt than we have actually got debt!
John Hogg President
Order! Senator Joyce, it is not a time for debating or statements prior to questions. If you have a question, you are entitled to ask the question.
Unidentified interjection - Hansard doesn't record who said this
Government Senators:
Government senators interjecting—
John Hogg President
Order! Order, those on my right! Senator Ludwig, I will give you the call, but there are those on your side who are interjecting when you are seeking a point of order. That makes it very difficult for me.
Joe Ludwig Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate
Mr President, on a point of order: what we have now witnessed is a supplementary question that is not a question. It is a statement. Therefore, I ask you to rule that the question is out of order and that it should be disallowed on the basis that there is simply a statement being made.
John Hogg President
There is no point of order. Senator Joyce, if you have a question rather than a statement to put before the question, you may ask the question.
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
Mr President, I do have a further supplementary question. It is very hard getting answers, though—right ones. Minister, seeing you have no idea exactly what our foreign debt is, can you please tell us, if you have got any idea, who the top three nations providing it are? I do not give myself much chance of getting an answer on that one either.
Penny Wong SA, Australian Labor Party, Minister for Climate Change and Water
Mr President, on a point of order: I invite you to consider, through this set of questions, the flagrant flouting of standing orders that Senator Joyce has been engaged in. He has now put three questions which he has refused to address through the chair and in which he has consistently engaged in statements. It is simply inappropriate given what is prescribed in the standing orders. He has persistently undertaken this flouting of the standing orders throughout the entirety of this question to Senator Sherry.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
There are various forms of debt. There is foreign debt, credit card debt, household debt, sector debt, corporate debt and government gross and net debt. Unfortunately, when Senator Joyce asked about debt and foreign issuance, he did not clarify—
Barnaby Joyce Queensland, National Party
Mr President, on a point of order: we have clearly spelled out exactly what we are asking: Australia’s debt as listed by the Australian Office of Financial Management as Commonwealth government securities outstanding. You can’t be more explicit than that. Answer the question!
John Hogg President
There is no point of order. Senator Sherry, I draw your attention to the question. You have 38 seconds remaining to answer the question.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
I think any analysis of the Hansard would show that, when Senator Joyce asked both his original question and his supplementary, he did not make it clear what sort of foreign debt he was referring to. He then, via a point of order—
John Hogg President
Order! Senator Sherry, this is not a time for debating the issue; it is a time for answering the question. I invite you to answer the question.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
He then did clarify the position after initially having failed to clarify what particular foreign debt he was asking about—he went on and clarified that he was in fact seeking data on—
John Hogg President
Order! Senator Sherry, I have invited you to answer the question, not to debate the question that was asked.
Nick Sherry Tasmania, Australian Labor Party, Assistant Treasurer
He has referred to the Australian Office of Financial Management volume of CGS on issue and I am pleased to— (Time expired)