John Watson (Tasmania, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Human Services, Senator Campbell. Would the minister inform the Senate how the government is ensuring the efficient delivery of over $100 billion in health and social services? Further, are there any alternative approaches?

Ian Campbell (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank Senator Watson for his very important question. I think one of the hallmarks of the Howard-Costello government is very strong economic management, ensuring that we deliver surplus budgets and low interest rates, and ensuring that the people of Australia can look forward to job security. That is at the heart of this government’s policies. Senator Watson knows better than most that we are also a government that are compassionate and that seek to ensure—

John Faulkner (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Faulkner interjecting—

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! Senator Faulkner, shouting across the chamber is disorderly.

Ian Campbell (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

that those people in need also get the benefit of a compassionate government. You cannot have a good social security system that looks after veterans or people who are unemployed, or good medical services for people who are on low incomes and need the benefit of Medicare, if you do not have a strong economy. Part of that strong economy is ensuring that we deliver roughly $100 billion worth of health and other social services to people in an efficient and effective way—making sure they get their Medicare payments on time, making sure they get their Newstart allowances on time and making sure that veterans get their pensions on time.

The problem with Australia at the moment, however, is Medicare fraud. It is one of the areas we are trying to address. Unfortunately, when Labor in 1984 issued the Medicare card they gave it out to all and sundry with no robust registration checks—no checks on the identity of the people. When Labor rolled out Medicare we saw labradors, poodles and even the odd kelpie receive Medicare cards. So we are addressing this issue. Not only are we ensuring that we have a high-quality card to replace the Medicare card—a smartcard using the best technology—but also that we replace approximately 17 existing cards. A typical Australian senior at the moment could hold a Medicare card, an Australian organ donor registration card, a Commonwealth seniors card, a Centrelink low-income healthcare card and possibly a Department of Veterans’ Affairs repatriation health card. The smartcard will allow that citizen to replace all of those cards with one card.

The alternative policies Senator Watson asked me to reflect upon are that the Labor Party are all over the place on this. As is their normal approach to everything, they are walking both sides of the street. Yesterday the member for Hotham suggested that, yes, we should have a new smartcard for Medicare and another one for veterans’ affairs. I think he was saying let’s have three or four new cards. The shadow spokesperson, the member for Sydney, suggested that we might have a smartcard but, look, if it is not in by June then we will not have one. Then you have other members saying no, they do not want one at all. They have now said—and this is a classic Labor Party approach to economic management, although mentioning ‘Labor Party’ and ‘economic management’ in the same sentence is I suspect an oxymoron—that they are not worried about welfare fraud. We know that the Federal Police Commissioner says there is between $1½ billion and $4 billion worth of fraud in the country. They are saying, ‘Forget the fraud.’ Instead of bringing in a new smartcard with a quality registration process they are just saying—

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Corporate Governance and Responsibility) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Wong interjecting—

Ian Campbell (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

This is a serious suggestion from one of your own people, Senator Wong. I think it was Mr Crean who said that we should just put the billion dollars in the bank and save the interest. Last time we went to the bank after Labor had been running things for a few years we looked to see how much money was left and it was not $1 billion; it was actually minus $96 billion. So we know how Labor runs the show, we know that they cannot be trusted and we know that their approach to having a quality healthcare card and a quality Centrelink card is in a state of confusion. (Time expired)

Kate Lundy (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Local Government) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is also to the Minister for Human Services, Senator Campbell. Does the minister recall asserting in question time yesterday that critics of the access card were:

… on the side of the fraudsters, on the side of the rorters—

and:

… they do not seem to mind that the existing system does create fraud.

Why is the minister so arrogant as to try and stamp out any debate about the access card, as he did by only allowing a truncated Senate inquiry into the proposal? Aren’t serious concerns about the access card being raised not just by Labor but also by the government’s own backbench, including Bronwyn Bishop, Steve Ciobo and Mal Washer? Does the minister think that Mr Ciobo, Mrs Bishop and Dr Washer are also:

… on the side of the fraudsters, on the side of the rorters—

simply because he does not agree with them?

Ian Campbell (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The great thing is that my colleagues whom Senate Lundy quotes are all supporting the legislation that is going before the Senate and the Labor Party are saying that they will not support it. Labor are all over the place. Here is a measure to save billions of dollars in welfare fraud. We want to ensure that we have a strong economy and you cannot have a strong economy if you have welfare cheats and Medicare fraudsters ripping off the system. Labor honestly said last night, ‘Let’s just put the billion dollars we will spend on the smartcard in the bank and collect the interest.’ We know what Labor does when it comes to putting money in the bank and collecting interest: they take money out of the bank and then pay the bank interest—billions and billions of dollars. We want to stop the welfare fraud.

In terms of the Senate Finance and Public Administration Committee inquiry and the process of bringing the smartcard to the Australian people, we have had the legislation out for public consultation for nearly two months now and we have referred it to the Senate committee for just under six weeks. I recall how things were when this rabble on the other side were in power. Let us look at, as Senator Watson will remember, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission legislation. They brought legislation to set up the entire financial services regulation of Australia in here on the Tuesday, referred it to a committee on the Wednesday and had it passed on the Thursday.

We have put this new smartcard out for public consultation. We have set up an independent committee under Professor Allan Fels to make sure that people who want to have a say about it can have a say about it. We have had the legislation out there for months so that people can look at it. We have referred it to a Senate committee for a six-week inquiry. Quite frankly, if a Senate committee cannot look at a relatively simple piece of legislation like the smartcard legislation for a period of six weeks, it is a reflection on the people on the other side who are on that committee. I suggest that they put in the same effort and the same work to ensure—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! There is too much noise on my left.

Ian Campbell (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

They are a rabble, a very noisy rabble. They squeal and squirm when the hypocrisy and the division within the Labor Party are exposed. I suggest that they do as my colleagues have done and get behind an initiative which will cut billion of dollars from welfare fraud. The coalition want to ensure we have strong economic management. You could not have that under Labor because they are all over the place on the delivery of welfare and health services. They want to turn a blind eye to welfare fraud. That want to turn a blind eye to Medicare fraud. They want to ignore the views of the Federal Police Commissioner who says that the Medicare card, as it is currently constructed, underpins billions of dollars worth of fraud. Labor want to turn a blind eye to it.

If people want their Medicare services delivered on time, if they want their Centrelink payments on time, we will make sure they get them. We will also ensure that the fraudsters, and the Medicare fraudsters, are kicked out of the system. Labor are the friends of the fraudsters. They should get behind the access card. They are the friends of the fraudsters. They should get behind—

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Were you rolled or weren’t you?

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Senator Evans! You are setting a very bad example for your colleagues on your side of the parliament.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I raise a point of order, Mr President. In prior rulings, I thought you had dealt with the government calling people frauds and hypocrites, in general. You seem to have changed your rulings today. I would like you to have a think about your earlier rulings because it seems to me the Leader of the Government in the Senate was calling us hypocrites and Senator Campbell is now calling us frauds and that we support fraudsters. I ask you to look at your previous rulings and see whether that is really acceptable. It might explain why the opposition get agitated given that sort of attack.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will have a look at it, but the opposition seemed rather agitated before this question was even asked.

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on the point of order: in a previous ruling—

Alan Ferguson (SA, Liberal Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

What is your point of order?

Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Opposition Business in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

The point of order is in respect of what Senator Evans has raised. Mr President, you said:

... I realise that former presidents have made rulings on that issue. I quote:

... offensive words against a group of members of either House may be regarded as a worse offence than directing such words to an individual member.

In that instance, Senator Vanstone said ‘now nearly racist Labor Party’. They were the words she used in the broad. Mr President, you asked for a correction and you ruled:

Under those circumstances, on reflection, I ask the minister to withdraw that comment.

On that basis, Senator Minchin should withdraw the comments that he made.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I take your point of order. Senator, I was wrong when I called on individuals but, obviously, it applies just as much when you are speaking generally about those opposite as hypocrites. Perhaps you could withdraw that remark, Senator Minchin.

Nick Minchin (SA, Liberal Party, Minister for Finance and Administration) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, that is not my understanding of the position. I thought the position was as you declared it: that a general reference to the Labor Party as guilty of hypocrisy was acceptable; that to accuse an individual senator of such a quality is not acceptable. However, if you are now reversing your ruling and saying that the term ‘hypocrisy’ cannot be applied to the Labor Party then I obviously withdraw.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

It seems I have made a previous ruling and I have to abide by that, and I will.

Chris Evans (WA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, thank you for confirming that ruling. I urge you then to take similar action in terms of Senator Campbell.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think that that word was used both in the question and in the reply. I will look at that and—

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Okay. I will look at it and come back to the Senate.

Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Corporate Governance and Responsibility) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr President, on the point of order: in regard to the question that Senator Lundy put, insofar as she used the term ‘fraudster’ she was actually quoting the minister from yesterday.

John Faulkner (NSW, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Which you allowed in order yesterday.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

All right, I will look at it. Senator Stott Despoja.

Natasha Stott Despoja (SA, Australian Democrats) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

In evaluating the Hansard from yesterday, would you make a judgement on Senator Campbell’s comments on the Labor Party, which he described as ‘on the side of the fraudsters, on the side of the rorters’ and when he went on to say that I was even worse. I ask you to review the specific reflection as well.

Paul Calvert (President) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I will have an extensive review on the comments that Senator Campbell made yesterday. Senator Lundy.

Kate Lundy (ACT, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Local Government) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I ask a supplementary question, Mr President. Aren’t the minister’s arrogant attacks on anyone who dissents from his view exactly the reason many Australians, including government backbenchers, are concerned about potential misuse of the access card? Why is it that the minister continues, even now, to be totally intolerant of the legitimate concerns about the access card?

Ian Campbell (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I think it is really unfair to say that I am intolerant of those views.

Opposition Senators:

Opposition senators interjecting—

Ian Campbell (WA, Liberal Party, Minister for Human Services) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

Me, intolerant? I said at the Senate estimates committee hearing last week that I will listen very carefully to the views of people who have concerns about the access card, and I have—in between Senator Stott Despoja helping me with homework back in Perth. I said that we want to have a robust Senate committee hearing process on this. I have already met with Professor Fels. I met today with Mr Puplick, who is looking into all these issues and advising me on these issues. I want to make sure that the card does what it is designed to do: make sure people get their Medicare payments and that the right people get them, make sure people get their Centrelink payments, make sure people get their Veterans’ Affairs payments. We will ensure that it is a robust system and that people get access to it, and that privacy is protected. (Time expired)