Joe Ludwig (Queensland, Australian Labor Party, Manager of Government Business in the Senate) Share this | Hansard source

You laugh and insult those people who are trying to ensure that there would be a fair dismissal code for small business that would ensure that there would be flexible, simple arrangements to allow small business to be within the system. That is unlike the position that I think the opposition argued—that it was exempt, that it was outside.

But, going back to the point that I was making, in relation to small business it is my submission that it is critical that you adopt the position that the Labor Party took to the election. We campaigned up hill and down dale on it. The position we put was crystal clear to the electorate. It was crystal clear what we were going to do when we got into office. I am fortunate enough to be in the position here today arguing for that, and I am not going to let it go without knowing in my heart that I have said everything that I could possibly say to make this happen.

We argued for Work Choices to be gone, to be got rid of. We argued for AWAs to be gone. We argued that there would be unfair dismissal laws. We argued against 100 employees being exempt from the system. We argued for our policy and it was clear. We put more detail in our platform and in the policies that we took to the election than you would expect. We put in the detail of what we would actually do, and I am here now doing just that. What you argue is that outside the industrial relations arena you might know better. You might know that the ombudsman from the telecommunications industry might have a different measure. You argue that there might be a more practical measure somewhere else. I am arguing from the industrial relations framework that has existed in this country for many years. It has used 15. It has used full-time employees and it has used part-time employees and it has used systematic casual employees. Why? Because they know what the terms mean as they have dealt with them over the years. The Australian Industrial Relations Commission—and in the future Fair Work Australia will—know how to deal with it. They know the sense of it. They will then ensure that it operates fairly and that it will operate easily for small business.

What you are both now doing, with respect, is adding a complication that should not get up, that is unnecessary, that is unworkable and that the commission will have to turn their mind to at the margin as to how it will operate. You will provide uncertainty to small business in this area, particularly small business at the margin. That is what you will do, and if I can argue you out of it in this chamber then I will do everything that I possibly can to convince you as to the right position to adopt. That is the position that we have put forward in our bill, not only because it is what we took to the election but also because it is simple, it is fair and it works. It has worked, because we know that the commission have used these terms before. They know what they mean and they can engage small business. Small business will be able to work with them—because, unlike Senator Boyce, I think that small business in this country is clever. It does work hard and it will be able to use these laws to ensure that it can dismiss people when it needs to and it can employ people when it needs to, and it will go on being profitable in this country.

We know that what you are now trying to do will be difficult to put in regulation and will be difficult to make work. It will be difficult to ensure that we have a certain position for small business. What I have learnt over many years from small business, having dealt with small business from a range of places—from both the Public Service and the union movement—is that they want certainty in their life: certainty about what the industrial relations laws are, certainty about what the tax laws are and certainty about a whole raft of legislation. So they argue for certainty. Why? Because if it is certain they do not have to considerate it, they do not have to think about it, they know what the rule is and they operate under it.

I will not labour the point anymore. If I have not convinced you, I am sorry, because it is just so critically important for this government to ensure that we do change these industrial relations laws, get rid of the last vestiges of Work Choices and make sure that we can have a fair, simple and flexible system for small business.