Kerry Nettle (NSW, Australian Greens) Share this | Hansard source

I think it is worth making it clear that this is not the only place that I have made these arguments. I made these arguments in the previous round of anti-money-laundering legislation. My concerns at the moment are directed at ASIS, because that is what we are dealing with in this legislation, but I have made several comments in this forum and others about definitions of terrorism and the impact that has on the broad net that is thrown.

If we are going to take away the privacy of Australians, we need justifications and we need to ensure that, in taking away that privacy, it is for a specific purpose. We do not think that in this case or in previous cases it has been specific enough. We are not saying that there are not instances where it may be appropriate. We are saying: ‘Let’s be clear. Let’s hear the justifications. Let’s ensure that, if we are taking away the privacy of Australians, as is proposed in this legislation, we are doing it for legitimate reasons and the legislation limits the privacy implications for Australians to what is absolutely necessary.’ This legislation does not do that. That is why we cannot support these particular amendments.

Going back to the figures I was talking about previously around staffing, I think ASIO is up to 110,000 staff. I was just stabbing in the dark on where we might be with ASIS. But it is certainly a large number of staff. We have seven, going on eight, Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security staff for oversighting. I am not saying that they cannot do a good job. But those seven going on eight include the admin staff. So their capacity to have that oversight is not extensive. I do not know—and by all accounts it does not sound like I am going to find out—how that compares to the number of staff that exist in ASIS.

Perhaps the minister can answer one more question: given that this is proposed to be the system for ASIS to access information through AUSTRAC, have there previously been any instances of ASIS accessing AUSTRAC information? The assumption is no and that this is setting up the system, but perhaps I am wrong; perhaps they have already been doing it through some other mechanism—whether it be through ASIO or whatever. I thought I should check that. It seems to be setting up a system on the way in which ASIS will get access to AUSTRAC. Is it fair then to assume that up until now ASIS has never had access to AUSTRAC information?