Kim Beazley (Brand, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition) | Link to this | Hansard source

My question is to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and follows the previous answer he gave, particularly the references in that answer to the Jull committee findings to which I was a signatory. Does the foreign minister recollect that findings 5.16 and 5.17 of the Jull committee found:

... the case made by the government was that Iraq possessed WMD in large quantities and posed a grave and unacceptable threat to the region and the world, particularly as there was a danger that Iraq’s WMD might be passed to terrorist organisations.

This is not the picture that emerges from an examination of all the assessments provided to the Committee by Australia’s two analytical agencies.

Does he also recollect from the Jull committee the following finding to which I was a signatory:

Other significant intelligence not covered in the government presentations included an assessment in October 2002 that Iraq was only likely to use its WMD if the regimes survival was at stake and the view of the Joint Intelligence Committee of the UK, available at the beginning of February 2003, that war would increase the risk of terrorism and the passing of Iraq’s WMD to terrorists.

Is it not a fact, Minister, that you exaggerated the intelligence available to you to send us to war in a failed effort and that, as a result of what you have done, we now face a growing terrorist threat? Why should Australians, who have witnessed your fundamental failure of strategy, believe that you are correct in your strategic assessment now as you want that war to keep going?

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, I make a couple of points.

Opposition Members:

Resign!

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. The Leader of the Opposition has asked a serious question. The minister deserves to be heard. I call the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Wayne Swan (Lilley, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Treasurer) | Link to this | Hansard source

Resign!

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Lilley is warned! The Leader of the Opposition has asked a serious question. I would have thought members on my left would want to hear the answer. I call the minister.

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

My answer is threefold. First of all, the Leader of the Opposition—as I made very clear yesterday and also during the censure debate on Monday—went out there in 2002 and 2003 and told the Australian public before the war that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

Kim Wilkie (Swan, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

Based on what you said!

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Swan is warned!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

He did so on many occasions, and for the Leader of the Opposition now to come into this House and pretend that somehow he did not say those things—

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. If members will not allow the minister to be heard, I will take action immediately.

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

For the Leader of the Opposition to accuse others of misleading when he himself—

Wayne Swan (Lilley, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Treasurer) | Link to this | Hansard source

Resign!

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. The member for Lilley will remove himself under standing order 94(a).

The member for Lilley then left the chamber.

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

For him to come into this House and attack other members of the House—of course, particularly members of the government—

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Grayndler! The member for Chisholm!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

for being misleading in relation to weapons of mass destruction when he himself was telling this parliament—

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Fowler!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

and he was telling the Australian public before the war and after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein—

Ms Catherine King (Ballarat, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Treasury) | Link to this | Hansard source

Ms King interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Ballarat is warned!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction—

Julia Gillard (Lalor, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Health and Manager of Opposition Business in the House) | Link to this | Hansard source

Ms Gillard interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Lalor is warned too!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

and the member for Griffith was doing the same thing—is hypocrisy—

Julia Gillard (Lalor, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Health and Manager of Opposition Business in the House) | Link to this | Hansard source

Ms Gillard interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. The member for Lalor was warned. She continued to interject. She will remove herself under standing order 94(a).

The member for Lalor then left the chamber.

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

The second thing is that this particular allegation that the Leader of the Opposition is making today, which of course completely contradicts the position he took three years ago, demonstrates one very important thing about this Leader of the Opposition: that not a day passes without his position changing.

Tanya Plibersek (Sydney, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Childcare) | Link to this | Hansard source

Ms Plibersek interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. I have repeatedly warned the member for Sydney. She will remove herself under standing order 94(a).

The member for Sydney then left the chamber.

The minister has not been called again.

Don Randall (Canning, Liberal Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Randall interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Canning is warned!

Roger Price (Chifley, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Price interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

And so is the Chief Opposition Whip.

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

The third point I would make, which the Leader of the Opposition chose rather conveniently to overlook, is that the presentation by the Australian government, he believes, was more moderate and more measured than that of either of its alliance partners. That is what the Leader of the Opposition said, and that the government’s—

Kevin Rudd (Griffith, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and International Security) | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: the Leader of the Opposition’s question dealt with two conclusions from the Jull committee report. The foreign minister has not referred to the Jull committee report in his answer at all.

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Griffith will resume his seat. I have not called the minister yet. I remind the member for Griffith that the Leader of the Opposition asked a very long question and the minister is very much in order—and he will be heard!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Griffith obviously is talking, as usual, more than he is listening, because I was just quoting from the Jull report. The quote—I repeat, signed off by the Leader of the Opposition—is this:

… the presentation by the Australian government was more moderate and more measured than that of either of its alliance partners.

That was the view of the Leader of the Opposition then. Today he says we lied, but he did not say that then. Today he has changed his mind. Back in those days he used to say Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat, and so will the member for Chifley. The member for Chifley will resume his seat! He just wanders around the aisles all the time.

Opposition Members:

Opposition members interjecting—

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Standing order 62. The member for Chifley will resume his seat.

Julia Irwin (Fowler, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

Mrs Irwin interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Fowler is warned! The minister has the call and the minister will be heard.

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

The final point is that the Leader of the Opposition—

Anthony Albanese (Grayndler, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Manager of Opposition Business in the House) | Link to this | Hansard source

What about answering the question?

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The member for Grayndler is warned!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

The final point I would make is that the Leader of the Opposition doubted the judgement that the Islamic extremists, jihadists and insurgents would be encouraged—

Kim Wilkie (Swan, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

What about Saddam?

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Order! The minister will resume his seat. The member for Swan has been warned. The member for Swan will remove himself under standing order 94(a).

The member for Swan then left the chamber.

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

The simple point is that the Leader of the Opposition at the end of his question made the point that he thinks by surrendering in Iraq it is the wrong judgement to believe that the jihadists and the insurgents will have been helped. I do profoundly believe that is absolutely the wrong judgement, and I must say—

Chris Bowen (Prospect, Australian Labor Party) | Link to this | Hansard source

Mr Bowen interjecting

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Prospect is warned!

Alexander Downer (Mayo, Liberal Party, Minister for Foreign Affairs) | Link to this | Hansard source

I do not think there are many governments in the Western world who would share the opposition leader’s judgement that the best course of action in Iraq is to surrender.

Anthony Albanese (Grayndler, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Manager of Opposition Business in the House) | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise on a point of order. For the members of the opposition who are still in the House, could you please, for the benefit of those people who are warned, let them know who has been warned?

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

The member for Grayndler will resume his seat. If members interject and they ignore a warning, the member for Grayndler is well aware that the chair will deal with them.

Anthony Albanese (Grayndler, Australian Labor Party, Deputy Manager of Opposition Business in the House) | Link to this | Hansard source

People don’t know—

David Hawker (Speaker) | Link to this | Hansard source

Well, if they make so much noise then they ought to listen.