Joel Fitzgibbon (Hunter, Australian Labor Party, Shadow Assistant Treasurer and Revenue) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I have a question of you, Mr Speaker. I want to assure you and the House that I raise this question not as a means of making a smart point but because I think we have established a serious area of ambiguity in the rules of the House. I am hoping that you can clarify the point by providing us with a ruling, not necessarily now but some time in the not too distant future. I asked you during the final division before question time whether all members were seated where they could be counted in the division. You ruled that all members were. There is no secret that I was referring to the Treasurer, who was sitting in the seat usually occupied by the Serjeant-at-Arms.

Mr Speaker, I refer you to page 275 of House of Representatives Practice fifth edition, which states that members not within the area of members seats are not counted. I further refer you to the latest copy of House of Representatives Standing and Sessional Orders, which states:

area of Members’ seats means the area of seats on the floor of the Chamber reserved for Members only.

The word ‘within’ could be the ambiguous part of the wording in House of Representatives Practice. I suggest to you that the wording in the standing orders could be taken to mean that the Serjeant’s seat is included, but then again it may not include the Serjeant’s seat. I suggest to you, Sir, that this could have serious ramifications in the case of a close vote—we do have conscience votes in this place on occasions, and we will possibly be having one very soon—and it could make a difference. It could be a serious problem for you if that were to occur. I think to clarify it would be appropriate.

David Hawker (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I thank the member for Hunter. I note the definitions in the standing orders that he refers to. On page 6 it says:

area of Members’ seats means the area of seats on the floor of the Chamber reserved for Members only.

It does not specifically exclude the Serjeant’s seat and, therefore, I have ruled that it is in order. However, if the member for Hunter wishes to take it further then I suggest that he refers the matter to the Procedure Committee.