House debates
Wednesday, 22 March 2023
Questions without Notice
Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme
3:00 pm
Joanne Ryan (Lalor, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
My question is to the Minister for Government Services. What has the royal commission into robodebt uncovered about what led to vulnerable people being targeted by the former coalition government's unlawful scheme?
Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
There have been more than a hundred witnesses at the royal commission, and broadly you can categorise the tenor of their evidence into two groups: there are those witnesses who gave evidence of courage, integrity and strength, and then there was the evidence of those who were in charge of the scheme. Those in charge of the scheme tended to have memory loss. They tended to blame others. I want to talk about one witness who blamed a very special person in this House. Specifically, the House needs to hear how the member for Fadden blamed the member for Cook for specifically targeting vulnerable cohorts. I rely on the transcript from the royal commission—for the benefit of my friend the Manager of Opposition Business—from page 4235. The member for Fadden explained how the former Prime Minister the member for Cook wanted to include what was referred to as 'vulnerable cohorts' in the robodebt scheme. In this context, 'vulnerable cohorts' meant—
Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! The minister will pause, and I will hear from the Manager of Opposition Business.
Paul Fletcher (Bradfield, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Government Services and the Digital Economy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Mr Speaker, you've issued numerous rulings on this.
Brian Mitchell (Lyons, Australian Labor Party) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
What's your point of order?
Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! The member for Lyons is warned.
Paul Fletcher (Bradfield, Liberal Party, Shadow Minister for Government Services and the Digital Economy) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
You have repeatedly directed this minister to stick strictly to the evidence and not to draw conclusions. He is, frankly, flouting and mocking your rulings in the language that he's just used, and you should, I submit, remind him that he needs to expressly stick to reporting the evidence and not go any further in offering a concluded view, as you have correctly, on a number of occasions, ruled.
Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The Manager of Opposition Business is correct. The minister is reading directly from the transcript and, if he were to conclude a view, you can be assured I will make the relevant decision. The minister in continuation, and he will be heard in silence.
Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
I thank the member for Bradfield. I'm not sure the member for Fadden will when I read the direct quotes.
Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The minister will continue with his answer.
Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The former member for Stirling Michael Keenan actually paused some of the robodebt on vulnerable cohorts in 2018. There was an election in 2019. The new minister was under pressure—and this is clear from his evidence—to reinstate the vulnerable cohorts. The member for Fadden said, and I quote—
Honourable members interjecting—
Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
Order! The Manager of Opposition Business will resume his seat. I want to remind the minister this is the last time. He's got to refer to the evidence, not give his opinion on the evidence. I hope that is clear. Otherwise he'll be seated. The minister needs to continue to refer to the evidence.
Bill Shorten (Maribyrnong, Australian Labor Party, Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The member for Fadden's specific words about reinstating the robodebt on vulnerable people were that it:
… wasn't conscionable. So the view was to kick it into the long grass until so much time as the question had been resolved.
The member for Fadden said that, 'by deftly manoeuvring the Cabinet Secretary', he was able to delay a discussion on reincluding vulnerable people. But, when asked by counsel assisting why he didn't just do as Keenan had and say, 'Not happening,' he said:
… at the time I was getting a fair bit of pressure from the Cabinet Office that to meet the savings requirements, this was needed, and that I needed to bring forward a Cabinet Submission on this.
When pressed about the Cabinet Secretary's authority to force this being brought forward and about whether ministerial responsibility is subject to the Cabinet Secretary's desires, the member for Fadden said:
The Cabinet Secretary speaks on behalf of the Prime Minister … So if the Cabinet Secretary is not happy, the next call is coming from the Prime Minister.
Asked in a different way, the member for Fadden said:
The Prime Minister signs off on everything that he wants to come forward.
The member for Fadden made very clear in the transcript—which I'm sure you haven't read—that the member for Cook made him do it, Your Honour!
Milton Dick (Speaker) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source
The Deputy Leader of the Opposition will cease interjecting, as I'd like to hear from the member for Goldstein in silence.